S1E9: Negotiation with Jim Reiman

We talk with Jim Reiman (https://negotiationsimplifiedbook.com, https://reimanadr.com) about his 2021 book "Negotiation Simplified" and the process of how to effectively negotiate. Some takeaways:

• Understanding goals, needs, and wants are keys to a successful negotiation
• Negotiation and haggling are not the same thing
• Asking yourself "why" and understanding your goal is a commonly overlooked success criterion for effectively negotiating
• The attributes of an effective leader are the same as a skilled negotiator

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Jim Reiman serves an arbitrator and mediator of complex domestic and international disputes, serves on boards of directors of public and private companies, and teaches and coaches negotiation and strategic business decision making at leading business schools and other institutions around the world.

He also teaches and qualifies senior attorneys in international arbitration with the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. Jim is a member of the commercial arbitration panels of multiple US and foreign arbitral institutions, and additionally is a member of the mediation panels of multiple US courts and mediation institutions. Jim is a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators (UK), a Q.Arb (Canada), and a Board Leadership Fellow of the National Association of Corporate Directors (USA). 

Jim practiced law in Chicago, IL (USA) for 18 years before accepting a senior executive position with a NASDAQ listed auction company at which he created and executed the company's e-commerce strategy. In 2002, he was asked to takeover and turn-around a failing chain of cell phone stores in China, a company at which he served as CEO and then Chairman, grew from 30 stores to over 300, and took public on the London Stock Exchange's AIM market in 2005. During that period Jim successfully unwound a public/private joint venture with one of China’s largest SOE’s, becoming one of the first to
accomplish such while preserving strong governmental relations. In 2011, Jim stepped off the Board of the Chinese company to build a US and Canadian business which developed and sold aerodynamic enhancing products for heavy duty trucks. In this capacity, he co-developed and co-invented technologies which have been awarded 19 domestic and international patents.

He is also the author of Negotiation Simplified: A Framework and Process for Understanding and Improving Negotiation Results, published by Amplify Publishing, an imprint of Mascot Book, Herndon, VA, 2021, Print, www.NegotiationSimplifiedBook.com

Jim is a graduate of Columbia University, New York (USA) (BA), Northwestern University School of Law (JD) (USA), and also holds a Certificate from the Advanced Executive Program, Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University (USA). He is the past President of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators

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Transcript

2:57

thanks everybody for joining again to the leadership Voyage uh I am here with Jim Riemann the author of negotiation simplified Jim nice to see you this afternoon thank you a real pleasure to be here absolutely we have a really unique topic I think in negotiation um first of all congratulations on the book uh released last year 2021 I got a chance to read through most of it uh in the last couple of weeks so very very nice stuff I am curious kind of personally for you from where does your interest in negotiation stem how did it come to be I I've been doing deals my whole life as a practical matter uh I started my career as a trial attorney but very quickly segued into doing business transactions uh and negotiating and documenting business deals and the role of an attorney um I enjoyed it uh I enjoyed creating things as opposed to fighting over past uh issues uh so as my career progressed I segued out of law actually into the business world uh did uh did a couple of turnarounds built businesses but I've been doing deals my whole life um and that's really the Genesis of it and then I had the opportunity to start teaching negotiation uh at the University of Oxford which is a great honor and a lot of fun because of the quality of that program the people to get through it awesome so you know that that's that's the long and the story of the story I love that line though too that I've been I've been making deals my whole life I just it's a it's a nice succinct uh caption for the whole thing no thanks for the explanation um I am curious you know when you and I spoke on the phone uh for the first time a couple of weeks ago you you said uh uh kind of quickly you went um you know the story of the the sisters and the orange and you explained to me the uh by using this story as a vehicle to kind of explain uh negotiation a little bit would you mind sharing that with our listeners sure but but a preface first if you read 20 books on negotiating uh and I've read a lot of them vert we say virtually the same thing um and and it's different how we address the topic and how we explain it what's going to resonate with you is what the difference to the extent that I've added anything to the literature it's my laser focus on goals and setting goals um goals Drive everything and it continually surprises me how often or I'm going to turn around how rarely people truly understand where they want to end up why they want to end up where they end up before they begin so it's all about goal setting this story is usually used and it's very common story and it's usually used to illustrate the concept of asking why and we'll talk about that later as we get into your interview I anticipate so the story goes like this there's a mother and two daughters in the kitchen uh preparing a celebratory dinner there's a single orange on the table both daughters reach for the orange at the same time hence a fight ensues the mother very wise asks daughter a why do you need the orange and by the way you can't split the orange in the middle and each daughter takes half the orange both daughters need the entire orange Dr A's answer I need the entire peel for this for a zest for the cake frosting that I'm making okay daughter B why do you need the orange I need the entire juice of the orange for the salad dressing that I'm making Solutions very simple the mother's very wise one other gets the juice the other gets the and everybody's happy the story is usually and almost exclusively told to illustrate the concept of asking why fundamental principle in negotiating um and resolving deadlock Etc I use it to illustrate the concept of goals if each daughter had understood that their goal was not the orange but the juice of the peel it would not have been a dispute and when you go into a negotiation you have to understand what it is that you want with the granularity of juice or peel not orange and that drives the entire process of a negotiation how much of what you just said obviously it's very important to the process of the negotiation and the goals but how much of what you just said is semantics to us in our own frame I need the orange right as a I need the peel right I mean I'm curious but you don't need the orange but that's the point so how do you look let's go back a couple of steps a negotiation is a process that's a critical concept what are you doing during that process you're identifying three elements goals needs and wants your goal is where you want to end up and you really have to understand that with that granularity your needs what are all of the things that are critical to your deal or that you must have in order to achieve your goal wants what are all the things that would be nice to have that's not critical and then during the process of the negotiation you're identifying your counterparts notice I didn't say adversary in your enemy I didn't say your competition your counterparts goals needs and wants and the importance of understanding that is not semantics it's not an orange it's juicer peel for exactly the reason that was Illustrated in that story of the daughters and and the mother in the kitchen you're not trying to secure the orange and by understanding that that's not your goal you break a deadlock and you find matters to trade and there's and at the end of the day there is horse trading there is trading that goes in place but what you're doing is you're trading matters of low value to you or matters that have high value but concurrently low value do your counterpart so the orange can't be split but by understanding that you're looking for an element of the orange not the orange that's how you create value and secure all of your needs is that helpful of course yeah hopefully not to be redundant but in the case here uh what's of high value to one daughter is the peel and the other daughter what's of high value is the juice right simple as that right those are the needs I'll give you another example a common example uh first used in in the very famous seminal work getting to Yes um and it has to do with the uh the negotiations for the over the Sinai desert uh the Jimmy Carter negotiated and the essence of the dispute was control of the Sinai Israel demanded control of the Sinai Egypt demanded the return of the Sinai what was really going on there understanding what the party's goals were was critical for Egypt it was security because at the time at the uh Yom Kippur War uh Egypt had placed their troops on the border of Israel they crossed the border and invaded Israel put got pushed back Israel needed that buffer zone for security for Egypt it was sovereignty it was national pride so when you understood what the goal was what the need was the solution became obvious you create a buffer zone so sovereignty was returned to Egypt and an independent neutral party the U.N was placed to manage the buffer zone that's the criticality of understanding what's your goal and what are your needs nobody cared about I mean Israel didn't care about the ownership of the Sinai they didn't care about control controlling the cyanide they cared about not having Egyptian troops on the Sinai so they had a buffer zone that's the issue and that's why it's not semantics it's really much deeper and more fundamental the Sinai was their way to try to Express the goal which was not the true root goal well Israel had been occupied occupying the sign it by occupying that not because they wanted it but because they wanted the security that it gave them yeah great yeah thanks Jim uh again the book is negotiation simplified and so some things sound simple and maybe the end result is to have a simple framework but the work involved to get to the understanding of why are the goals is a little bit of effort it seems like which makes sense right otherwise we'd already be good at negotiating I suppose wouldn't we yeah well I mean the essence of the title is that my description of the process is to simplify because so many and the reason I wrote the book is so many of the books were either overly technical very academic relating all kinds of studies or overly simplistic and I wanted to find that middle ground so the process itself is complex because anything that's multifaceted is complex but how I explain that process I hope was simplified because I distilled it down to there's four basic elements that are important um you know and then try to simplify the explanation of those four elements yeah let's let's talk a little bit about something that comes up in the book is the difference between uh negotiating and haggling for me this was a helpful distinction uh because I think before I was reading your book I was thinking haggling is negotiating so the example in my mind I think of is uh my in-laws have a have a home in in Mexico and and you know my father-in-law always says oh yeah when when you go to the market and something's a thousand pesos you know just tell them you'll pay them 500 pesos right and I mean in my mind I go that's dumb but what's the difference between negotiating and haggling well you just described haggling haggling is where you have an item that's worth ten dollars objectively the vendor wants a hundred dollars you offer 10 cents and you keep splitting the difference until you get there that's haggling negotiating is a reason to based process where both parties are exploring what are the goals what are the needs in the wants of the other side so once that understanding is achieved then you can have a rational trading of the various wants not the needs because you've got to have all your weak needs in order to secure your goals but a rational trading of the wants and the difference between a deal a good deal and a great deal is the number and the quality of the wants that are achieved by each side so let me give you a simple example of this um let's assume that you are applying that you're applying for a job uh or you're about to be hired they want to hire you now you're in the negotiation uh of the deal so let's let's break make it real simple there's four elements there's salary there's the start date there's the location and the vacation time how long and when you take it okay okay those are the four elements on the time salary is important to both sides let's take that off the table you reach a mutually agreeable number someplace in the in the middle that's consistent with the market in your desires let's take salary off the date start date you don't care whether you start tomorrow or you start 30 days from now you're happy to take the time off the employer has a deal they need you tomorrow they need you to start immediately location you could work in New York you could work in Chicago your your agnostic uh on that particular issue and the salary will be adjusted based upon the cost of living in either City so we're going to take location off the table vacation you've got a vacation that you've planned with your family for months you've got to have that vocation six months from now and it's got to be three weeks not two okay Bender doesn't care when you take it as long as you can start now and finish this project right it's right and they're willing to give you the extra week to get you to start tomorrow okay guess what low value to you start date high value to the employer vacation date and time high value to you low value to the employer there's your trade okay that's how you create value for both sides win-win is everybody's you know talks about win-win I I think that's utterly simplistic and unrelated to the title of the book it's not about win-win it's about securing as many of your wants as you can and securing the value of the wants that are really important to you that little example illustrates how you do that the negotiation is really a two-part well three-part process part one before the negotiation begins preparation and and the essence of the preparation is understanding with the granularity of juice or peel what your goal is what you want to get there once you identify that then you identify the needs what are all of the things that you must secure must in order for you a goal to to be achieved and then want what are all the things you want and here's the important piece what's the value of each of those wands okay some people put a scale of one to ten I actually like that and you value them then the negotiation starts you're trying to identify the goals the needs and the value of the wants well what the wants are and the value of the wants of your counterpart yeah so act one is the learning process and you learn your counterparts positions and conversely you disclose yours not completely disclosed but you disclose so that you can now get to once the all the information is there now you can begin what I call act two or the trading process where you trade start date for vacation okay that's the negotiation and that's the process and that's very different from you know I dropped 10 cents you come up 10 cents that's right right right and actually I I will tell you that in negotiations um and often in mediations I serve as a mediator somebody says well you know I just came down 10 you've got to come up and my response is no I don't right oh you know I gave you a reason to based analysis for the price that I'm asking all you've done is demonstrate that the price that you have set is irrational and has no basis so give me a reason to change interesting interesting uh I did want to go back to a detail you said there for a second um because I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the people listening don't have the direct types of experience that you have when it comes to negotiation and so you said in in this discussion between ourselves and our counterpart that we reveal our wants but then you quickly interrupted yourself and said well well not all necessarily all your wants what what is the Nuance in this uh you know because I do think once when we think about negotiation we think about maybe you know this glamorized thing of I've got something hiding or or what is that what did you mean when you said well don't disclose I would not disclose all my wants well you you've got to be careful let's go back to the employment example that I use I would not disclose that I don't care whether I start okay on day one or 30 days from now I would disclose that that's something that's open to for negotiation I see that that makes okay that makes perfect sense now I I get it you're being you're being honest but not transparent entirely perhaps honesty is critical yeah honesty is important um and and at Oxford we make a big deal about honesty because the world is really small uh and it's getting even smaller with globalization uh and I will tell you I refuse to do deals with people because in the past they've lied to me uh and there are certain companies that I won't do business with uh because you know of their ethics the way they do business uh it's just not worth it and you can do you can put a cost to that and you can do a risk assessment uh to ethics and and and then cost it out and those that are far more quantitative than I actually do that so ethics is important but transparency and how transparent you are is really what we're talking about and that that illustrates it um so you wouldn't lie but you don't have to say I don't care where they start today or start tomorrow you you'd hold that information back so that you have some leverage in the in the trading no that makes sense good thank you for the clarification on that um early on you had said something about you know sometimes we might start negotiating before we truly understand our goal why why do you think that hap why is there a tendency for that to happen do you think how do we end up in that situation I I I can't answer the question except that it's more common than not um and uh embarrassingly I'll relate this story I knew I wanted to write I know I wanted to write this book okay and I had a sense of what I wanted to write and I got the first draft out and I sent it to a colleague actually he's the academic director at the Oxford program negotiation to review it and and to give me you know his his thoughts and his feedback and he said Jim why are you writing this book what's your goal and I hadn't really thought about it but I gotta tell you I was mortified by this question because I can't read this book well and in the program you know they kid me that I'm Mr Galls yes I really focus on goals and I ask about goals all the time and I hadn't really thought through in my own mind what is it that I wanted to achieve with this book[Music] um you know I was about 85 there but I hadn't really crystallized it and having crystallized it the name of the book came out yeah uh that was how I was able Divine and develop that that the title um and it changed the focus a little um so I I I can't I'm not a psychologist I can't answer why but most people really don't take the time and and it's a conscious expert to really sit back and think about it you know think about the fights that you have with you know or disagreements not there you go um you know with your spouse why are you fighting about the taking who's taking out the garbage tonight yeah yeah it's usually not about as my turn it's your turn it's usually about something else so what are you trying to achieve in this dispute and in a complex business negotiation or even a simple interpersonal negotiation if you can stop and focus upon what is it that you want to achieve that's going to give you the pieces and the analytical process to understand what you're doing where you're going what do you need what do you want and how do you achieve those needs and wants yeah thanks for sharing that and for the for sharing the personal anecdote as well Jim I I love it um I I was really embarrassed I wish I wish people could see your facial expressions but that's okay let's take our word for it I one thing I'm also one wondering about kind of in the broader sense is um uh in this podcast you know talk about a lot of different topics and how it might relate to leadership so however you might Define a leader in your own mind you know what do you how important is this skill of negotiation in your mind to being an effective leader for someone it's critical to leadership but it really goes back to one's definition of leadership one leads by example uh people do what they observe not what they're told so how one negotiates and wants understanding of negotiation is all part of the process of leadership I mean what I I describe negotiation success negotiation requires honing just four skills one of the four being listening good leaders listen and they listen carefully and I talk about this in the in negotiation many of the skills of a successful negotiator identical to the skills of a successful leader um in terms of listening there's really three elements of listening listening to what's being said by your counterpart really hearing it listening to yourself are you communicating effectively that which you want to communicate you're in yourself that's being self-aware and then this last one hearing what's not said which often is the loudest statement in the entire room so you know good leaders listen really well and they understand those three elements of listening core skill of a successful negotiator so they go hand in hand and many of the skills are the same love it as I've been oh and as a quick aside for those listening uh the sixth chapter of this book has a lot of really uh a lot of really interesting real life uh testimonials I guess we can call them real stories told by others and then Jim adds a paragraph at the end kind of how how is how does this relate to what we've talked about earlier in the book about negotiating and it's really really interesting um what I was going to ask you about uh about here was um and your mind blank hold on uh you'll edit leader yeah I know exactly uh leader oh yes so when I when I was reading through the book Jim uh related to self-awareness not during negotiation for myself but what I was thinking was gosh I wonder when I'm not even aware of a negotiation situation I wonder if I'm not even dialed into the fact that I am now negotiating which maybe relates back to not knowing what not knowing a goal or something you know suddenly I'm in a situation and perhaps this is a moment to apply certain um certain skills here well you know it's interesting because you asked me about leadership and I'm thinking about leadership and I'm thinking about the core skills of a great leader and I'm looking at my list of what are the core skills of a great negotiator and they're almost identical let's talk about them it success in negotiation and which I articulate in the book requires four skills one goal setting well a good leader has a clear understanding of where he or she is taking you know we have a vision right the company or whatever you know they have a clear goal uh secondly preparation and just come to that by you know having a dream in the middle of the night that goal was the result of preparation and how that goal gets executed or achieved is the result of preparation so preparation is key to leadership um listening we've talked about and being self-aware we've talked about those are the key elements of leadership in my opinion and they're coincidentally and I had not realized this until now the uh same key elements of the successful negotiator so I guess that's another same skills different application yeah there you go same skills different application that's great um we we've talked a couple times about uh the importance of understanding your goal right what tips can you give us um to help effectively set a good goal foreign go back to the story of the orange okay understand with granularity what it is that you want to do that you ask the question of that the mother asked and that um Jimmy Carter asked why okay why is this important that's how you get there so and that what I didn't do what am I trying to achieve here uh there's a discipline in the Pro and there is a process and there's a discipline in the process and if you skip a step you get 80 of the way there but that last step of really asking why drilling down what is it do I want the orange I really don't want the orange I want the juice with the peel um that that's the key to success really understanding what you want and why you want it because that drives everything else once you understand that that's going to tell you exactly what you need you need the entire orange not half the r or the entire peel yeah not half the peel so and once you understand that that's going to give you the questions to ask to get what you want from your counterpart to achieve whatever those needs are yeah no thank you asking ourselves the right questions asking ourselves why continuing to dive deeper and get the true goals the true uh the true y's no that's great again the the description of the process simple the process itself requires reflection deep thought right a true surveying of the entire situation uh I mean I love it it's it's a great a great way to frame it lawyers learn in law school the first year of Law School uh I was asked the question in contracts class the first or I was told this the first day of contracts class the questions are the answers okay it took me this semester to really understand it and lawyers really dig into because the questions do derive the answers and I won't bore you with the legal analysis there but the questions are the answers and you need to ask questions and you need to ask lots of questions and the answers to the questions you ask are going to provide additional questions that you need to delve into and that's how you continually narrow what you're doing in the book I use the the metaphor of a spiral and you spiral down or up depending upon one three-dimensional spiral yes I'm with you now yep to to zoom in to to get exactly where you need to be great now I work uh mostly for my uh in my my day job work I work in software product development and I don't know Jim if you uh are familiar with Clayton Christensen and jobs to be done Theory but what what is really interesting to me is the relationship of understanding why or understanding our goal and this this Theory and there's kind of this uh well-known anecdote in the community around jobs to be done Theory and they're they're trying to figure out why Burger King milkshakes are selling well in the morning and they're messing around with the recipe and they're doing all these things and and it goes on and on and on but the point I'm trying to get to here is they're trying to determine the true customer need the customer need in the case we're talking about wasn't about the milkshake itself The Taste the recipe maybe even that it was Burger King I don't know the fact was these were people who had long commutes who wanted things that were easy to hold that took a long time to ingest the thickness of us of a of a of a shake it through a straw and and the kind of the saying that comes out of this is what were people hiring a milkshake to do okay now this might sound crazy to some people and that's fine but but it strikes me as kind of similar because we can just pretend that we understand this is about milkshakes or something about eating the food or whatever but really understanding why and asking the customers what were they really why were they doing this why did they choose this item as opposed to a bagel with peanut butter in the car right um to me that sounds so similar to truly taking the time to identify I need the orange zest for my recipe I don't need an orange so I don't know no that that makes a lot of sense I was I had not heard the story and I was really curious why milkshakes in the morning but you know in the business world and if you go to business school or they spend a lot of time in business school what is a company's core competencies and one of the best example and and how you define that's really critical too goes back to your issue of leadership is really critical to understanding what the company focuses on and one of the best examples that I've always liked is the story of Disney Disney wasn't in the business I mean arguably it's in the business creating movies and running theme parks but this and McDonald's as well McDonald's is in the restaurant business but really they're in the experience business yeah they've delivered that when they understand that their core competence and their Core Business was to deliver a discrete well-defined experience yeah it's the same thing as understanding what your goal is once you define it as an experience as opposed to selling food or you know doing a ride mhm that changes the analysis and the understanding of what you need to do in order to preserve or continue and grow yeah and even setting that goal around experience rather than rides inspires your employees in entirely different ways that you might innovate in a way that you've never foreseen right that's really interesting yeah because your ride no longer needs to be a thrilling ride it could be you know satisfying a different kind of emotion yeah that's great uh before we get to the last couple uh questions here Jim I I did want to ask you uh kind of jump back tactically for a second we talked about needs and wants a little bit but it is something that I as I've been thinking through this I think you know I am having a hard time sometimes finding that breaking point between what a need is and what a want is and as you've said the key to success well you'll correct me if I'm not saying it right uh the key to a successful negotiation is where you and your counterpart are getting all the things you need and then you are hopefully getting your high value wants well while um uh conceding low value wants to them your low value wants to them um or matters for which you have no concern are not a one or not even a want thank you that's a great uh kind of like there you go what's not being said sometimes even more important what uh do you have any tips about the the unless it's going back to asking why again and that's fine I'm curious though needs versus wants do you have a way to to help with that sure what's your goal that's your first one the goal is to make the salad dressing yep what are the elements what are the ingredients that you must have and what's the quantity of the ingredients that you must have to complete successfully your recipe yep the ingredients and their quantity are your needs greater quantity would be a want okay okay um something that's not critical but would spice it up a little would be a want okay uh you know go back to the employment example you you know and I said being in New York or being in uh Chicago is not critical but maybe it was maybe being in one city was a need you had to be in one city for whatever reason yeah maybe uh yeah maybe my me and my partner are both looking for jobs and they just got one in New York and so now that's a need for me or maybe I've lived in Chicago but never lived in New York so I'd prefer to try New York that's a want exactly yeah great okay yeah it seems like maybe going through examples are is kind of one of the most tactical ways to practice understanding so right a need is something that you must have in order to achieve your goal yeah so the the recipe is a is a good metaphor for that okay well so much great stuff Jim I I appreciate it uh I'm learning a lot still learning a lot in this conversation so thank you so much for that um before we kind of close things out here I want to ask you what I ask everyone at the end of uh leadership Voyage is what is something that you've learned recently I'm going to give you two examples okay and and for your audience you gave me a heads up about the question so I could think about it which I really appreciate it um answer number one is something that I've known but I've never really focused upon or understood the depth of this and that is how important a preconceived understanding of an issue is to the process of negotiation and to your world view and similarly the how difficult it is to change that preconceived notion um if you believe something to be facts that support your belief you are going to Value much higher have much greater credibility with you than facts that are contrary to your belief and you're doing that on a subconscious basis uh you see this in the political world and I'm not going to go into any political examples but you see this in the political world a lot in terms of the choice of spokespeople of networks of analysts that you read they are confirming um in the negotiating world you see this in terms of understanding and valuing arguments arguments that resonate to you are unimportant finding arguments that resonate with your counterpart but how you determine what you think resonates is important based upon what you believe is important um and I recently read a couple of Articles and studies that are quantifying and demonstrating that Concept in fact they just published when I do a monthly newsletter I just published one uh in my newsletter so the importance and the challenge of overcoming preconceived beliefs that would be one answer the second answer is completely off the wall it's I've always been fascinated by quantum physics and quantum mechanics I've read a little about it I don't understand it but it is so counterintuitive that kind can flow backwards with just being proven within the field of quantum mechanics that the mere Act of observing something changes the result which has been proved multiple times in quantum physics it's mind-bending I'm a fan of Science Fiction um it's mind-bending I don't get it I don't put I don't believe that I even understand the nuances of it I and the the most simple level of it but I find it fascinating and I keep digging into it and keep getting confused and more flabbergasted by a contrainness of it so that's my answer no good thanks for sharing those those two two answers Jim uh that's great I appreciate that um for those who've been listening and I want to check out what you're what you're up to uh you know what your services are uh anything like that where where should we direct them well I I act as a uh arbitrator and a mediator of commercial disputes and I have a website uh called rieman ADR it stands for alternative dispute resolution Riemann adr.com and I do a monthly newsletter um which you can find on that website so you can view that you of course can read my book um and you can reach me from my website or from my book website which is negotiation simplifiedbook.com perfect Jim thanks for setting some time aside today it's been my pleasure to talk to you thanks for uh teaching me so much and for walking me through so much here it's uh it's been a really great experience so thanks so much for taking a few minutes it's been a lot of fun and a real honor thank you thanks Jim all right good