S2E18: Know Your Leadership Style with Robert Jordan

Robert Jordan is CEO of the Association of Interim Executives. He has been launching and growing companies and helping other entrepreneurs do the same for 20 years. His first company, Online Access, put him on Inc. magazine’s Inc. 500 list of fastest growing companies. Online Access, the first Internet-coverage magazine in the world, ran for 10 years and after its sale Jordan launched RedFlash, an interim management team that specializes in corporate development work.

Robert Jordan is the author of How They Did It: Billion Dollar Insights from the Heart of America (www.HowTheyDidIt.com). He lives in Illinois.

https://www.rightleader.com/ is the site for the book  "Right Leader Right Time" that we discuss in this episode.
=====
4 Winning  FABS Leadership Styles

• Fixers need crisis and turn things around
• Artists see the world as a piece of clay to be molded
• Builders want to scale and dominate markets
• Strategists lead in complex organizations beyond their personal span of control

Reaching High Leadership Performance

• After looking at thousands of executives, their main challenge is trying to be all things to all people.
• The best leaders reject what is not for their best use.
•  Especially early in a career, it’s hard for people to reject work.
• The best leaders double down on what they do best.
• There is a lane for you!

Knowing Your Leadership Style

• Apply your style to the right situation
• https://www.rightleader.com/ has a self-assessment
• Share your wiring with your colleagues to increase the odds of successful collaboration!
• You’re not pigeonholed, though
• “Use every color” you have available
• And integrity underlies it all

Leadership Voyage
email: StartYourVoyage@gmail.com
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LeadershipVoyage
linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonallenwick/, https://www.linkedin.com/company/leadership-voyage-podcast/
music: by Napoleon (napbak)
https://www.fiverr.com/napbak
voice: by Ayanna Gallant
www.ayannagallantVO.com
==========

Instacart - Groceries delivered in as little as 1 hour.
Free delivery on your first order over $35.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

1
00:00:01.730 --> 00:00:13.359
Jason Wick: Welcome back everybody to another episode of leadership voyage. I am very happy to be with another guest today, and I am with Robert Jordan. Robert, it is great to meet you today.

2
00:00:13.770 --> 00:00:33.920
Robert Jordan: Jason is a pleasure to meet you. You have like the perfect voice for this, and I'm not saying that it's like, Oh, gee! You should be on a podcast, you you're beautiful, but you also have a great voice for this.

3
00:00:34.160 --> 00:00:56.820
Jason Wick: Yes, that's true, you are. And and what I've loved already in the few minutes before. I click the record butting button we've talked about how we both have Chicago ties. Yours much deeper than mine. We've talked about Monty Python and the Holy Grail, so maybe we'll see where we go with this one today, Robert. But it is a pleasure to be with you.

4
00:00:56.820 --> 00:01:08.230
Jason Wick: I am, really happy to have you today to talk about some of the stuff in your book from last year. I believe it was 2022. The book is called Right Leader. Right Time.

5
00:01:08.320 --> 00:01:12.100
Jason Wick: Discover your leadership style for a winning career and company.

6
00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:31.020
Jason Wick: I am holding it right here for everyone who won't see this on the audio. I'm holding the book. I've read it. I have listened to the audio book as well. It is a great read, and what I want to say real quick, although I want to hear you talk way more than me. What I wanted to say upfront. Here is what I love about this book, Robert.

7
00:01:31.300 --> 00:01:32.380
Jason Wick: Is that

8
00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:47.250
Jason Wick: it? Like took a bunch of stuff I think I knew to be true kind of sorta as pieces of information, and it put a construct around it. And I'm excited about that for others when they listen to this discussion and and ultimately check out the book. So

9
00:01:47.600 --> 00:02:01.670
Jason Wick: the construct here is for Fabs leadership styles in this book. Right, leader. Right time. Would you mind starting us off with a rundown. Of what are the 4 Fabs leadership styles?

10
00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:20.580
Robert Jordan: Sure, thanks, Jason. So we identified for what we call leadership. Styles style is a shorthand that a lot of leaders, especially if they're exceptional over the course of the careers, come to develop more of a system and a process and approach

11
00:02:20.610 --> 00:02:32.549
Robert Jordan: to how they do things, how they lead. And so we call that style. And we identified 4 winning styles which we call fixer, artist, builder, and strategist.

12
00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:36.439
Jason Wick: All right now. Do you have a favorite?

13
00:02:37.600 --> 00:02:45.830
Robert Jordan: Well, my own, of course. But you know, as we write in the book, if you are

14
00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.620
Robert Jordan: dominantly wired, or to style to your peril.

15
00:02:49.880 --> 00:03:14.920
Robert Jordan: because you cannot stop. Just just the quick definition of artist is artist energy sees the world as a black canvas or a piece of collective embolden. Now, that's wonderful for acts of creation, but unmitigated, if that's all you had on your team, you know. God help you! Because, you, any successful team requires all of these energies.

16
00:03:15.950 --> 00:03:22.500
Jason Wick: Yeah. And I think that's a great point. And and I, I might ask some questions on that. A little bit later on. But you know

17
00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:32.539
Jason Wick: something I'm not sure that we all are considering is what is our our style or our approach, as you said

18
00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:53.570
Jason Wick: in a particular situation or in a particular context, and that is really where this book helped me. Personally, I normally, when I have this show, I don't normally speak personally like this too much. But it was like, Wow, you know, you think about a person's style and a lot of times we're just kind of jamming that

19
00:03:53.580 --> 00:04:00.770
Jason Wick: into any given situation. Do you think that's kind of common, uncommon? What? What? What's your take on that

20
00:04:01.190 --> 00:04:06.170
Robert Jordan: you you're identifying the core of why we did the book. Because.

21
00:04:06.650 --> 00:04:11.279
Robert Jordan: you know, first of all, nobody does a business book, because they're going to make money at it.

22
00:04:11.530 --> 00:04:21.129
Robert Jordan: The book itself that that's an impossibility. granted a lot of people, you know. Yes, we do business books, because it's going to go help us in business.

23
00:04:21.700 --> 00:04:34.809
Robert Jordan: The motivator here was that because we run a company called it or makes X, and over the past decade we've been approached by over 8,000 executives from 50 countries

24
00:04:35.470 --> 00:04:48.239
Robert Jordan: in the process of what we do, which is, we're a matchmaker between organizations and rock star executives. you, you know, when thousands of people shop, you have to develop systems. And so there was ranking, scoring, screening.

25
00:04:49.090 --> 00:05:00.210
Robert Jordan: the majority of those executives we would describe as having careers and leadership journeys that are okay. but not great.

26
00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:09.999
Robert Jordan: the vast majority. And if you had to PIN it down to one thing well, Jason, I would say, trying to be all things to all people.

27
00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:15.570
Robert Jordan: As soon as I say that everyone listening is going to be like, Oh, yeah, I would never do that.

28
00:05:15.870 --> 00:05:17.030
Robert Jordan: Okay.

29
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:38.100
Robert Jordan: okay, I got you. But when we looked at exceptional leaders, the top one or 2 those folks were exhibiting a high degree of style process. Approach one of these 4 labels, fixer, artist, builder, strategist. And to get to that high point requires

30
00:05:38.320 --> 00:05:43.440
Robert Jordan: incredible discipline and pain. It's painful because

31
00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:49.870
Robert Jordan: what we, what we we're finding in the book is exceptional. Leaders tend to reject more

32
00:05:49.880 --> 00:06:00.910
Robert Jordan: of what is not for their highest and best use. and especially early on in career that is harder and possible for most people to do.

33
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:03.250
Robert Jordan: and we just

34
00:06:04.590 --> 00:06:05.490
Jason Wick: no go ahead.

35
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:22.339
Robert Jordan: Well, I have. I have daughters, they they're they're in their twenties and I can tell you as as the as the the source of support. those girls are not rejecting a whole lot of jobs when their father says, get off. Dad's payroll.

36
00:06:22.350 --> 00:06:33.259
Robert Jordan: yeah. And it. It's just something that you become more confident and accomplished in your career that you start to discover. Oh, I like day more than B, and I like see more than D, and

37
00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:42.340
Robert Jordan: and you start listening to this still, small voice in you which is telling you. This is where you need to go. Not all these other things. But this thing.

38
00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:45.970
Jason Wick: Yeah, that's

39
00:06:46.580 --> 00:07:08.229
Jason Wick: that's a really interesting comment. yeah, it does seem. Often people are looking for opportunities, and and they're not necessarily factoring in what they're best at. It seems like they just need something something to get to, or another job, or what whatever. But I I want to kind of, you know. Repeat it a little bit, and and and emphasize this a little bit.

40
00:07:08.710 --> 00:07:16.119
Jason Wick: But you're saying what you've identified if I hear you right. Is that the most exceptional leaders that you've you've talked to and studied?

41
00:07:16.200 --> 00:07:23.029
Jason Wick: They they are much more common, they're more often rejecting opportunities. Is that right?

42
00:07:23.450 --> 00:07:31.399
Robert Jordan: Yes, that's correct. So they're they're injecting. They tend to reject more, and they tend to double down

43
00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:37.019
Robert Jordan: within one particular style. and you will. You can see this.

44
00:07:37.350 --> 00:07:48.429
Robert Jordan: You know, we could give you we we can go through examples, Jason, you know, as we're recording this, a a crypto platform called Ft. X. Blew up about 6 months ago

45
00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:57.770
Robert Jordan: the court appointed a CEO that CEO of surprise, not surprisingly where was the before Ft. X. He was in.

46
00:07:58.190 --> 00:08:20.999
Robert Jordan: He didn't create the mess. He was cleaning it up, that is, that's that man's mission, and in life is to go run into burning buildings. That's the definition of fixer. Yeah, I was gonna say, and then this. But in your book it's the fixer. And if I remember correctly, I think you said about about half, maybe a little under half of leaders, identify as

47
00:08:21.260 --> 00:08:31.629
Jason Wick: fixers as their primary or their preferred style. If you will.

48
00:08:31.760 --> 00:08:38.529
Robert Jordan: that it's it's it's an adrenaline rush. and someone who is wired dominant for fixer.

49
00:08:38.630 --> 00:08:42.340
Robert Jordan: fixer style needs.

50
00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:44.589
Robert Jordan: They need crisis.

51
00:08:45.210 --> 00:08:48.809
Robert Jordan: You. You put a fixer into a steady state

52
00:08:48.890 --> 00:09:04.139
Jason Wick: business to be maintained, and they will start working. And that was one of the quotes that I had written down from the book was something like that. It was. If you put a fixer into the wrong situation, they will break things so that they can fix them.

53
00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:24.260
Jason Wick: And I want anyone listening to kind of process that for a second, because I actually think once again putting this construct around the experiences and the personalities of the people we know and ourselves could help explain why we've been in certain circumstances that we've been in our careers. I'm reading this book going.

54
00:09:24.530 --> 00:09:40.690
Jason Wick: Oh, my gosh, yeah, I remember that person who took over the department I was in at that point in time, and all they want to do is X, y, and Z, when the situation didn't suggest we necessarily needed X, y, and Z. That's where I find this so enlightening.

55
00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:59.309
Jason Wick: So before we move forward any more with some more stuff. I was wondering you talked a little bit about the artist and seeing the world as a blank canvas. Could you just tell us a little bit more. Oh, we just talked about fixers for a second. Could you tell us a little bit about the other 2 just short recaps. What's a builder and what's a strategist

56
00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:08.060
Robert Jordan: builder? Well, first of all, let's acknowledge any one in any organization wants to be a builder. We're all builders.

57
00:10:08.130 --> 00:10:25.810
Robert Jordan: We need something a little more specific, which is the energy which takes the small, the Mason team product service division client relationship. And this driven to scale. This is the person that has market domination on the brain.

58
00:10:25.810 --> 00:10:39.359
Robert Jordan: Okay, that is what we mean by builder. This is a person who is expert at putting process system. People product in place. What you tend to see with a lot of builders who are great at that is, when they achieve

59
00:10:39.380 --> 00:10:44.139
Robert Jordan: that market dominance. You tend to see them get a little bored.

60
00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:54.260
Robert Jordan: They're going to probably move on to the next company project, division, or whatever where they get to do it all over again. It's it's it's a

61
00:10:54.310 --> 00:11:12.610
Robert Jordan: similar energy to fixer when fixers work is done and a company is turned around. The best thing they can do is to leave move on to the next crisis. Maybe it's within the same company we know veteran fixers, and in global organizations where they will keep moving to trouble spots around the world.

62
00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.149
Robert Jordan: builder, is that that same kind of energy? Some cases you'll see. Builder.

63
00:11:18.290 --> 00:11:29.650
Robert Jordan: you know. I I occasionally go to Boston, and there's a bakery there that I love, and they are dominant in Boston, in the suburbs. They crush it.

64
00:11:29.810 --> 00:11:37.299
Robert Jordan: They're not in Chicago. not not Chicago. Don't think they're in Colorado. If the heart of that bakery

65
00:11:37.370 --> 00:11:45.230
Robert Jordan: there is a builder that said, not only we are going to be the best, but we are going to crush it in in in Boston and surrounding areas.

66
00:11:45.270 --> 00:11:49.730
Jason Wick: Okay? And then, how about the strategist

67
00:11:50.170 --> 00:12:06.670
Robert Jordan: strategist is the leader of scale strategist, the is the leader within complex or vast organization that is beyond. You know, Steven Company have this phrase, personal span of control. Strategist is the expert leader beyond personal span of control.

68
00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:17.239
Robert Jordan: You tend to see that fixer artist builder, these energies. you know you've you've got a team of 5, 1050, maybe 100 people. You all know each other

69
00:12:17.370 --> 00:12:26.010
Robert Jordan: and and work it's done, and at least in part it is based on trust in that relationship that you are all gonna you're all going to be singing together.

70
00:12:26.380 --> 00:12:43.390
Robert Jordan: Strategist does not have that luxury, not completely. They have trusting relationships in the organization, but by definition they cannot know everyone there. It's simply too large. And yet how do you succeed beyond all your competitors?

71
00:12:43.550 --> 00:12:56.790
Robert Jordan: So, Jason, you're in Colorado. beautiful state. We've been talking about some of the Colorado folks who were interviewed in the book, including Dr. Janine Davidson, who is now the President of Metropolitan State University.

72
00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:02.070
Robert Jordan: Prior to that she was the Under Secretary of the Department of Defense. and

73
00:13:02.210 --> 00:13:12.180
Robert Jordan: it's just fascinating to hear Janine describe. You know, when you have more than a million people in an organization. I can't. What is leading the navy like.

74
00:13:12.550 --> 00:13:20.100
Robert Jordan: And it's just to hear the language of systems of systems and the that you are.

75
00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:26.520
Robert Jordan: You're working on a scale that feels so minute. But at the same point you know that a change you make

76
00:13:26.890 --> 00:13:29.410
Robert Jordan: can't over time be vast

77
00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:33.010
Robert Jordan: very different language

78
00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:47.749
Robert Jordan: from the other styles strategist languages. It's you will always hear about mentorship and mentoring gratitude to the organization. Loyalty, longevity, cross training, cross functionality.

79
00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:50.950
Robert Jordan: You don't hear that from fixer, artist, builder.

80
00:13:51.060 --> 00:13:56.570
Robert Jordan: fixer, you hear about velocity builder. You hear about market and product and

81
00:13:56.590 --> 00:13:58.290
Robert Jordan: and domination.

82
00:13:58.370 --> 00:14:08.420
Robert Jordan: You know, artists. You're going hearing about relevance. And and this urge, this need to create and to be heard, and and to bring product to fruition.

83
00:14:10.290 --> 00:14:16.339
Jason Wick: Wonderful explanations. Robert. Thank you, and also for kind of calling out some of the

84
00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:41.309
Jason Wick: true uniqueness of the strategist there at scale that I I just personally, I can't even wrap my head around it. I'm sure someone out there listening can. because they are a strategist. But I certainly cannot. Now, if I am, I'm sitting here listening to our conversation. And I'm going. Okay. This all sounds interesting. I'm I'm starting to to track a little bit with what? What you're all talking about.

85
00:14:41.680 --> 00:14:55.610
Jason Wick: and of course we always start to think of ourselves. First, right? Okay. People are listening. What am I? What am I? I think I'm a this. I think I'm a that. What is the first step for someone who is trying to explore

86
00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:01.490
Jason Wick: who they are, what their their dominant style or approach might be?

87
00:15:02.990 --> 00:15:19.489
Robert Jordan: That's a good question. The first thing is, I hope, I think. that someone you know one of your listeners to simply hear these descriptions can get some insight. Second thing is, we did launch a free assessment called Fax leadership assessment@rightleader.com.

88
00:15:19.520 --> 00:15:21.890
Robert Jordan: And it's about 3 min.

89
00:15:22.130 --> 00:15:29.529
Robert Jordan: Yeah. I took it. It was a few minutes. Not very long. Do you mind sharing with everybody? What! What did you having to come out for, you

90
00:15:30.130 --> 00:15:31.930
Jason Wick: Called me a fixer?

91
00:15:32.510 --> 00:15:34.189
Robert Jordan: And do you agree with that?

92
00:15:34.260 --> 00:15:58.330
Jason Wick: I do agree with that? I also think that after reading the book that I felt some some pull towards Builder. But I think Fixer is easily the dominant style for me. Yeah, so. And I'm asking you, Jason, because this is for for your listeners who take it. It's the final question, the assessment. It comes back and it'll say it'll say congratulations. Looks like you've got fixer builder

93
00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:02.349
Robert Jordan: wiring. And I'll say, did we get it right.

94
00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:06.179
Robert Jordan: because we are continuing to collect data.

95
00:16:06.210 --> 00:16:19.150
Robert Jordan: and we're fine. But what I would say is so for somebody who takes it. they get a result. The thing we suggest everybody is, go back inside your organization, or what people don't know, you would just tell them.

96
00:16:19.520 --> 00:16:24.909
Robert Jordan: Tell them, because if you required a little piece of of your own authenticity.

97
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:29.010
Robert Jordan: your own who you are here.

98
00:16:29.400 --> 00:16:40.040
Robert Jordan: share it because our premise is that teams that get to know each other better, that become more engaged and authentic and genuine

99
00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:52.959
Robert Jordan: work with each other in relationship with each other, will perform better. that that your confidence goes up, knowing more about your own wiring, and to know about your colleagues and their wiring

100
00:16:53.180 --> 00:16:55.790
Robert Jordan: means. There's a greater chance

101
00:16:55.970 --> 00:17:00.020
Robert Jordan: that your collaboration is going to succeed.

102
00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:05.440
Robert Jordan: that, knowing you people are going to know. Oh, this kind of project came up.

103
00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:07.520
Robert Jordan: Jason's got it wrong with this ball.

104
00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:16.670
Robert Jordan: and the Flip side is that you know for somebody else. It's like, Wait a minute. This thing here, this really needs to go to John.

105
00:17:16.780 --> 00:17:22.249
Robert Jordan: John's the guy for us. That's gonna he's gonna win with this project more than I would.

106
00:17:22.790 --> 00:17:24.310
Robert Jordan: That is our promise.

107
00:17:24.780 --> 00:17:37.090
Jason Wick: I love the premise. And and I love that. Yeah. This idea that you know, sharing something that's speaking authentically to you, and and who you think is what you identify as part of you, sharing it with those you work with.

108
00:17:37.210 --> 00:17:47.329
Jason Wick: helps the connection, and it also, I love this because it goes back to the idea of what you were saying where some of the most excellent leaders here are.

109
00:17:47.530 --> 00:18:02.539
Jason Wick: or, you know, saying no to certain opportunities, finding the right opportunities, and I find a good thread there when it just comes to the operational work, who all of us are doing in organizations. What's the context of this thing that I'm being asked to do? Maybe our instincts are

110
00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:13.189
Jason Wick: my manager, my boss. Whoever that is is telling me I have to do this, so I just do it. But maybe there's another conversation to be had which could help everyone, including yourself, be effective.

111
00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:31.170
Jason Wick: and and I love it right. Maybe this situation isn't the best one for me. But over there was it John? Or hypothetical John, whatever you said the name was they they are doing something different, and maybe we should swap. And I just love the idea of this kind of discussion around it. And again.

112
00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:38.429
Jason Wick: things that I think we all kind of. Maybe we. We smell right metaphorically, but

113
00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:51.640
Jason Wick: but we don't really know how to put the words on it or talk about it. And that is what I really, really like about this book. Listen to this book, people. Okay, we go read the book or listen to this book. So I took the assessment.

114
00:18:51.730 --> 00:19:00.199
Jason Wick: I I I come up with a result. You ask me if you got it right? You're still refining it. But we'll just say, Okay, I know more about myself.

115
00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:10.590
Jason Wick: We've talked about a little bit that we can do with that information which is great. How about some like, maybe gotcha questions here?

116
00:19:10.770 --> 00:19:14.870
Jason Wick: How can What was I going to ask you?

117
00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:28.740
Jason Wick: What are some of the challenges that you have seen when it comes to realistically matching the right leader to the right role.

118
00:19:31.030 --> 00:19:37.369
Robert Jordan: Well, you could do all of the metrics in the world that you want.

119
00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:42.430
Robert Jordan: they all that there is this elusive thing around our own integrity.

120
00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:54.300
Robert Jordan: That is is hard other than the experience to see how a a leader behaves. I've learned from long experience

121
00:19:54.460 --> 00:20:10.620
Robert Jordan: that you can think we're all holding to some common standard of high integrity. That is not the case to just go read any news story you want, and you're going to see samples of people behaving badly. so

122
00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:27.469
Robert Jordan: so you know, I might have been I forget who the the finger might have been. Peter Drocker, who was saying, you you train for competence, you you fire for lack of integrity. You know, you could train people in terms of skills. But

123
00:20:27.550 --> 00:20:34.709
Robert Jordan: but if but if you're behaving without integrity well, then, you just find my, but you just violated the court?

124
00:20:34.810 --> 00:20:37.500
Robert Jordan: 10 to what it is to to be a leader.

125
00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:42.720
Robert Jordan: And this is this is common. I mean, one of my friends was telling me about

126
00:20:42.840 --> 00:20:49.849
Robert Jordan: He works in the public company, and the CEO did an All hands. Several 1,000 people

127
00:20:50.010 --> 00:20:51.470
Robert Jordan: on a zoom call.

128
00:20:51.850 --> 00:20:59.590
and he was exhorting everyone. Covid was ending to get back. We've all got to get back into the office and the and the plants.

129
00:20:59.870 --> 00:21:08.589
Robert Jordan: Well, every last me and woman on the call new that this CEO lived 2,000 miles away from the headquarters, and he did not come in

130
00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:24.060
Robert Jordan: to the office every day. How does he? How does that person get off telling everyone they have to come in? Where, by definition, this is a person lacking integrity. Would you follow that person into battle.

131
00:21:24.410 --> 00:21:28.640
Robert Jordan: No, so not surprising that organization went bankrupt.

132
00:21:29.170 --> 00:21:34.460
Jason Wick: That literally literally went into bankruptcy.

133
00:21:34.540 --> 00:21:36.070
Robert Jordan: Like, nice job.

134
00:21:37.050 --> 00:21:54.019
Jason Wick: I love that added element of the what you can teach and train, you know. And then this, this distinction of around the integrity. yeah, you you can't really teach a moral compass, I suppose I think that, or if you can, it's not worth the energy in in in the business setting, is it?

135
00:21:54.390 --> 00:22:05.200
Jason Wick:  So we talk about these 4 leadership styles. We talk about the different contexts in which we can apply them. We've talked about maybe what

136
00:22:05.490 --> 00:22:08.500
Jason Wick: separates the highest performers from others.

137
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:17.809
Jason Wick: One thing that you know, I was wondering about going into this book, Robert, which I wonder personally, anytime I go into any type of

138
00:22:17.830 --> 00:22:21.809
Jason Wick: personality assessment. We'll just say it kind of like that?

139
00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:26.160
Jason Wick: Am I just stuck in this one archetype.

140
00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:49.720
Jason Wick: or can I be all for, or what's your opinion on that? Because I know that in some cases you go. Oh, I can switch, and I can be a chameleon, or or whatever thing, right? And others, maybe I feel too rigidly typecast. Right? What's your take from all the studying and and learning you've done? Are we just kind of stuck in this archetype? Or what do you think

141
00:22:51.560 --> 00:22:56.960
Robert Jordan: we would never want to pigeon hole anybody into anything

142
00:22:57.250 --> 00:23:01.709
Robert Jordan: we acquainted it. We looked at it like DNA.

143
00:23:01.860 --> 00:23:11.590
Robert Jordan: You know, they're just, for they're called nucleotides. They're proteins. There's just 4 proteins that make up all of biological life just for.

144
00:23:11.850 --> 00:23:20.480
Robert Jordan: But this infinite variety and variation is making up, whether it's your pet turtle, your dog, your Aunt Mary, you or me.

145
00:23:20.750 --> 00:23:30.589
Robert Jordan: You are that variation. And so I believe that your particular leadership style is as unique as a fingerprint. I do. I don't think.

146
00:23:31.080 --> 00:23:38.560
Robert Jordan: especially for the work we do, because we have been in contact with so many thousands of executives.

147
00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:46.610
Robert Jordan: I had this uninformed idea in the beginning of doing it like I was Ceos, the CEO, to see, you know, whatever they're all interchangeable.

148
00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:53.330
Robert Jordan: They're not interchangeable at all. Absolutely not the uniqueness of each individual comes through and

149
00:23:53.360 --> 00:24:03.870
Robert Jordan: and their own individual leadership style. So your way, Jason, of being fixer, builder, artist, or strateg is going to be different from mine.

150
00:24:04.050 --> 00:24:21.280
Robert Jordan: it! It's it's off camera here. But I have had a full set of crayola, the big box crayons, not because I'm using them every day, but because it's a reminder, use all the callers. And so I think that for all of us.

151
00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:28.079
Robert Jordan: what we're called on in roles and working in roles, in leadership is use every caller

152
00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:35.810
Robert Jordan: you have available, and and depending upon what you are called upon to do. different of your abilities are going to come out.

153
00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:40.370
Robert Jordan: I would still say, given that you have a strong suit.

154
00:24:40.940 --> 00:24:48.540
Robert Jordan: and you know it, and the more you go into your career you are determining that link. There is a way.

155
00:24:48.580 --> 00:24:55.470
Robert Jordan: and it's clear to the rest of us, even if it's not clearly you. And by the point where you've stacked up a lot of years.

156
00:24:55.560 --> 00:25:03.139
Robert Jordan: Successful careers become very obvious to everybody around you. It's like, Oh, that's Jason. That's what he did.

157
00:25:03.250 --> 00:25:10.050
Robert Jordan: because you kept on making these decisions. I wanted A, not B. Oh, here I want to see, not D, and this is.

158
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:17.040
Robert Jordan: you know, you kept on listening more and more to this core of who you are, what you have to do. And it's not everything

159
00:25:17.610 --> 00:25:22.209
Robert Jordan: that's. And this is the the the

160
00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:26.890
Jason Wick: is the opposite of this.

161
00:25:28.660 --> 00:25:34.319
Jason Wick: Yeah, I love that. That's that's great. So use all the colors

162
00:25:34.410 --> 00:25:41.560
Jason Wick: but also recognize that we have. We have preferences right? Or we have some natural strengths about us and

163
00:25:41.600 --> 00:25:46.679
Jason Wick: others. See that as you're saying, anyway?

164
00:25:46.840 --> 00:26:20.350
Jason Wick: no, that's great. And and I want to say it for for the twelfth time. you know, people really really check this out? I think it can really unleash some some great situational awareness for so many of us. And Robert, while I have you. I couldn't resist asking a kind of a couple of broader questions of you, since I have you on the line that are not necessarily about the book per se, but just about leadership in general, someone who's been around so many leaders over time.

165
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:25.089
Jason Wick: what do you think are the most essential qualities of a good leader.

166
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.089
Robert Jordan: Well, I don't want to sound like a broken record, Jason, but I

167
00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:49.180
Robert Jordan: I there is no getting away from integrity. you know, leader, there isn't. And you know, we identified these 4 different styles. But we we wrote about these 3 commonalities as well. One of them is this superior ability to double down, to keep focusing on a unique

168
00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:56.109
Robert Jordan: style? One is the superior ability to collaborate. because when you're more confident.

169
00:26:56.450 --> 00:27:04.980
Robert Jordan: it is easier to acknowledge every and and allow everybody else their own genius. And the third is the way we phrase is, we said, great leaders don't hide.

170
00:27:05.630 --> 00:27:06.880
Robert Jordan: They do not hide.

171
00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:17.599
Robert Jordan: And we see this a lot of the world. I'm fine. We put an example of a book about Wells Fargo, a former CEO, who was called in front of Congress because.

172
00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:30.179
Robert Jordan: Wells Fargo had fraudulently created several 1 million accounts that shouldn't really have existed, and the CEO was was called the task for this cross-selling that went crazy.

173
00:27:30.560 --> 00:27:35.270
Robert Jordan: And you know, in front of Congress, he said. Well. it wasn't me.

174
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:36.580
Robert Jordan: It was the Board.

175
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:49.259
Robert Jordan: Seriously. You think anyone's going to believe the Board of directors is involved in the in a major corporation set the tactics of marketing? We just saw it again. You know the failure of Silicon Valley Bank

176
00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:54.410
Robert Jordan: the CEO of the bank was called in front of Congress.

177
00:27:55.270 --> 00:28:01.000
Robert Jordan: He was yes. he was at. Was there anything you could have done leading up to this?

178
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:06.070
Robert Jordan: No, no, we said they. They really.

179
00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.120
Robert Jordan: it's really nothing apparent.

180
00:28:10.290 --> 00:28:15.899
Jason Wick: interesting. Yeah, okay, that transplants are revolves around accountability. And

181
00:28:16.060 --> 00:28:21.220
Robert Jordan: and you you know what none of us are flawless. We all make mistakes.

182
00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:30.190
Robert Jordan: We all my list from today, I mean, you know, and and I think you know, Brett Brown is to be credited for her work on vulnerability.

183
00:28:30.550 --> 00:28:32.230
Robert Jordan: Because,

184
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:43.790
Robert Jordan: yeah, I'm convinced for a lot of leaders in public life, who screw up that if they simply acknowledged it. it did not deflect and and dig the whole even deeper.

185
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:57.819
Robert Jordan: that in most cases they would be forgiven. to simply acknowledge and apologize, and to set a new intention. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

186
00:28:57.970 --> 00:29:00.570
Jason Wick: No thanks for saying that, and

187
00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:04.299
Jason Wick: so kind to recap some of the qualities you brought up is

188
00:29:04.360 --> 00:29:11.510
Jason Wick: our integrity and ability to collaborate. Don't hide, be accountable definitely. Qualities that

189
00:29:11.530 --> 00:29:20.750
Jason Wick: that do are for great are great. I'll be okay. Qualities that great leaders possess and transcend

190
00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:36.520
Jason Wick: pretty much, many, many roles. When when you you know, I I wrote this question down in advance for you. But but I hadn't really thought about the concept of you being being an an artist in this. And so I think it's a perfect question.

191
00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:44.050
Jason Wick: What do you see as the you know? What are your thoughts on the future of leadership? What do you see on that blank canvas of what's to come.

192
00:29:45.890 --> 00:29:47.360
Robert Jordan: Well,

193
00:29:47.420 --> 00:29:50.989
Robert Jordan: you know, I'll I'll say something. I think that is

194
00:29:51.110 --> 00:29:55.049
Robert Jordan: very prevalent, you know, in the news I think that AI

195
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:02.530
Robert Jordan: artificial intelligence is going to play for all of us. I'm not saying that it's a zoom

196
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.449
Robert Jordan: some kind of doom saying like, Oh, my God, look out, leaders!

197
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.299
Robert Jordan: I think a new tool is

198
00:30:09.410 --> 00:30:13.230
Robert Jordan: has shown up here. and I think it's going

199
00:30:13.270 --> 00:30:16.480
Robert Jordan: to inform our better leadership.

200
00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:20.509
Robert Jordan: I think it's going to become more and more personal and informed.

201
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:24.700
Robert Jordan: I just had a nice little boost.

202
00:30:24.860 --> 00:30:28.990
Robert Jordan: I put on a treasure hunt for my family on a vacation.

203
00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:34.200
Robert Jordan: and I did it as a secret. It was a surprise for 12 people

204
00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:36.160
Robert Jordan: and

205
00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:45.249
Robert Jordan: because it was a secret and a surprise. I had no one to rely on, and I've never done a treasure month before. so I was completely blocked.

206
00:30:45.590 --> 00:30:55.160
Robert Jordan: This is what what do we do? Where do I send them. Where does this put whatever like this down to one? I thought. let's go ask Chat Gpt.

207
00:30:55.870 --> 00:31:02.360
Robert Jordan: So I typed in. I said, this is the address treasure hunt. 10 clues go.

208
00:31:02.560 --> 00:31:05.579
Robert Jordan: and within a second I got back.

209
00:31:05.620 --> 00:31:13.679
Robert Jordan: No, I didn't use it per se, but it was as if I had a conversation with somebody, and just said, Oh, my God, I'm so blocked! What do I do?

210
00:31:13.900 --> 00:31:16.240
Robert Jordan: And this this other?

211
00:31:16.250 --> 00:31:23.049
Robert Jordan: You know it's it's a machine. I'm not giving it. I'm not granting it full intelligence here. But I don't block me.

212
00:31:23.790 --> 00:31:37.799
Jason Wick: Yeah. Something came up with some ideas. And I was like, Okay, now I'm I'm no longer blocked, Bingo. And so I would say, you know, for for all of us, in terms of using the tools available to us, all the callers

213
00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:43.510
Robert Jordan: on your palette. you have a new tool, and it's going to help you and it it's going to be AI.

214
00:31:44.410 --> 00:31:54.580
Jason Wick: I love that point of view on it, too, Robert. I look at this as an opportunity, not a threat. Look it as it a tool, and to enhance and what a great example, a personal example.

215
00:31:54.580 --> 00:32:16.130
Jason Wick: It unblocked you. It was. It was an idea that led to your next idea, or whatever right and and that's great. What a what an advantage we all have in our fingertips! And I will say from talking to many people this year for this show AI is building more momentum in terms of it. Just kind of coming up in the discussions right in 2,022.

216
00:32:16.270 --> 00:32:31.879
Jason Wick: I don't remember if it even came up. But in 2,023, I think it's now come up already, maybe 4 times. So yeah, thanks for sharing that before we wrap things up and and provide you the opportunity to let everybody know where they can go to check everything out.

217
00:32:32.230 --> 00:32:36.780
Jason Wick: I ask every guest on this program, what is something that you've learned recently.

218
00:32:38.560 --> 00:32:40.139
Robert Jordan: Well,

219
00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:45.779
Robert Jordan: I did an exercise for myself recently, and I called it shots on goal.

220
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:53.250
Robert Jordan: And what I did was I wrote down I I tried to look back

221
00:32:53.460 --> 00:33:03.410
Robert Jordan: and and look at my career, and to say, When did I make a major decision like taking a job moving

222
00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:09.750
Robert Jordan: that started investing in companies and investment. And I called each one a shot on goal. Okay.

223
00:33:10.270 --> 00:33:16.939
Robert Jordan: And I'm still in the process of learning from analyzing my own shots on goal.

224
00:33:17.820 --> 00:33:22.840
Robert Jordan: I will share with you, Jason, that I identified 60 shots on goal.

225
00:33:22.930 --> 00:33:35.119
Robert Jordan: Look, I've been involved in a lot of. It's not like I've had a career. It's like, Oh, I worked at the post office for 30 years. Yeah, that's not me. So, having been involved in a bunch of businesses.

226
00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:45.229
Robert Jordan: It was it? It's it's been a great thought exercise for myself. I'd welcome anybody. Listening starts to a little spreadsheet and look at your own shots on goal.

227
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:52.620
Robert Jordan: because I I then wanted to apply a filter to say, Okay, what were those decisions

228
00:33:53.310 --> 00:33:59.060
Robert Jordan: points in the journey where I had a leap. Or you know the quote the in the Tenx.

229
00:33:59.230 --> 00:34:06.209
Robert Jordan: What what was the thing? Where I gave up an 80% to focus on a 20% of something. And

230
00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:16.930
Robert Jordan: you know, what did I learn from that? I'm going to tell you. One of the overall things I keep learning and reminding myself, is that any moment. at any moment for any of us

231
00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:19.989
Robert Jordan: there's really only 2 states. There's either love or there's fear

232
00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:28.750
Robert Jordan: whatever is going on. We humans work. In some ways we're not all that complicated. We are either wired for love or we are we for fear?

233
00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:33.049
Jason Wick: Yeah, great insight and thanks for sharing all of that.

234
00:34:33.070 --> 00:34:35.060
Jason Wick: Robert. I really appreciate that.

235
00:34:35.330 --> 00:34:47.880
Jason Wick: So for those interested in in what you've got to say and what you've studied and what you've written, and all of those things, or maybe they are. they're an interim executive themselves. What? What would you like to send them?

236
00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:51.530
Robert Jordan: I could be reached an interim. exec.com.

237
00:34:51.850 --> 00:34:53.610
Jason Wick: Okay. Simple as that.

238
00:34:54.030 --> 00:35:02.550
Jason Wick: Robert Jordan. My pleasure to talk to you today. Thanks for sparing a few minutes. really nice to meet you today and have a wonderful rest of the day.

239
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.569
Robert Jordan: Thank you, Jason. It's been a pleasure I'm honored.