Leadership Voyage

S2E6: Talking Teams with Tricia Broderick

• Jason Wick • Season 2 • Episode 6

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Text Jason @ Leadership Voyage

Tricia Broderick, co-author of Lead without Blame, is a leadership and organizational advisor. With over twenty-five years of experience, her transformational leadership ignites the growth of leaders and resilient high-performing teams to deliver quality outcomes. Tricia boldly role models putting people first.  Her aim is to create inclusive connections and collaborations that challenge and support people in an authentic, vulnerable, and engaging way. She is a highly-rated trainer, coach, facilitator, and motivational keynote speaker.  In 2020, she founded Ignite Insight + Innovation.

When not traveling to experience the world, Tricia lives in Denver with her family.

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In this episode, we talk about:

Groups v. Teams

  • Groups and teams are different
  • Groups are cooperative, willing to work together, and reactively supportive
  • Teams are collaborative, feel a sense of shared ownership, and are proactively supportive
  • Groups are good for task-based work
  • Teams are better when we need to discover value amidst complexity
  • Most organizations are structured for group-based work

Leaders Shouldn’t Have All The Answers

  • You’re promoted for your last job’s skills
  • You can’t scale yourself
  • Leaders can be the bottleneck to high performance
  • Organizations likely look at the leader as the expert

Efficiency v. Effectiveness

  • Efficiency is doing something fast, but what if it’s fast and wrong?
  • Effectiveness is doing something well
  • Collaboration is not efficient
  • You have to take the time for the team, take time for learning

Resilient Learning Teams

  • People don’t come to work trying to blame
  • But there’s blame all over in organizations
  • The momentum in organizations looks for a false sense of control
  • Put effort into what you can learn rather than what you falsely believe you can avoid
  • There’s no checklist to create that safe environment, but to promote learning focus on essential motivators and resilience factors

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welcome back everybody I am here with Trisha Broderick it is great to see you this morning Trisha likewise likewise um I became aware of you about five six years ago when I was a participant in one of your leading amazing teams workshop and for dramatic effect I I still have the book right here and I didn't I mean it's staged for right now but but it was in there and that's the truth I am really excited to talk to you about your book and other topics uh because I honestly use tools from that workshop on a weekly basis still in my management life so thank you for the effect that you uh and Jake calabresi he was the co-facilitator that you two have had on me thank you thank you like that's awesome to hear it's like it's way to start my day off oh good because like that's why we created that course and why I do what I do is to try and help people have better tools have better support um and and what they're trying to accomplish so it's actually a very lovely thing to hear first thing I'm I don't take a compliment well but I I'm very grateful I'm glad to hear that and also what's been great is I have passed the tools on to many others right and and so it's just a it's a really cool multiplier effect but honestly uh it's one of the few classes that I really struggled when we went virtually like and I do it virtually will it have the same effect and and I really we really had to work hard at it but uh Jake and I are super happy with what has happened with that class and continuing to happen and so we still give it um we only do it like once a quarter but we still we still do it together that's great to hear that's awesome so I reached out to you because you co-wrote you co-authored this book leading amazing teams building resilient learning teams and teams is one of my favorite topics so I wanted to start off first by uh defining team and I want you to go first I'll go after you and then we can take it from there what is a team oh well my generic team dynamic or do you want my resilient learning team dynamic either one okay well let's start with just the team Dynamic first um I think people use that word very very Loosely for a lot of things and and I think a lot of people kind of refer to groups as teams like people that are willing to cooperate willing to kind of work together but in a very coordinated Cooperative helpful way but not necessarily in a team way for me a team is when you're truly starting to collaborate when you feel this kind of starting to feel a sense of ownership where you're building off of each other's ideas where you're depending on each other where you're engaging with each other intentionally and proactively and and so for me a team is working together to produce and not in a Cooperative way but in a collaborative way okay when I think of the definition of team I think all of the members of this group of people need to share a kind of a purpose Mission objective and that the objective they're in pursuit of is more important than any other individual interests in that context and I do agree that group is mixed with Team quite often yeah I I can get behind so I really like the last part that you just said with that because a group could have a common goal but they each have a part right and so I can be successful in my part even if we are not successful with a group uh with the overall goal and so I really like that last part that you added on with the team where no one's part is more important than the overall goal and that's where that collaboration that shared ownership really comes in no cool and what's a resilient learning team then if you want to go there so so we started talking about this and and people have always kind of said you know a team is great but a team there is a dynamic of the leader still often The Hub right the leader is still often making sure no balls drop and and and to be clear the leader had to be the Hub to get them to team to get them to move from group to team and things like this but one of the things that we've always talked about especially in the agile Community is the concept of a high performing or self-organizing team and that's where the leaders not be in the hub and and Diane and I we've just heard it so many times well do I have a role then as a leader if I if it's a self-organizing team and I'm like well first of all it's just ridiculous because they didn't magically become self-organizing but two that if you think a team just stays High performing oh that's that's just precious yeah and so what are you doing to reinforce resiliency what are you doing to reinforce the learning environment because things are gonna be constantly changing if nothing else 2020 has taught us is chaos is the norm and and what are you doing to really build that Dynamic and that takes concerted effort and and proactive intentional leadership to really lift up and build that type of environment and that type of team great we're going to dive into a lot of that stuff let's rewind a little bit here and and again go back to that distinction of group versus team and now you're you're putting on top of that the resilient learning team what does it look like if I'm a part of a group like let's just have everybody who's listening kind of think about what team they're on or what group they're in what does it look like if I'm a part of a group what does it look like if I'm a member of a team what are the differences what are my experiences like in a different way so in a group I usually like to reference a group is kind of they act like a relay um they might have that common goal but it's like here's my part let me hand it off now you might hear things like let me help you with your part as long as my part gets done right um but you're going to get measured on your part I'm gonna get measured on my part there are handoffs they are there's uh rewards for for individual elements and and things along those lines and unfortunately most organizations are structured to for group dynamics like hand off to marketing hand off to sales hand off to the right and so we we think of that as working together and it is a form of working together but it is a very Cooperative form and so at the end of the day you might get a little bit of help um but you still feel the weight you still feel the ownership you still for your part um and and it really just lowers people's willingness to be transparent because why should I tell anybody I'm struggling because it's my part it's my ownership and and those things so a team you start to really start building things together and and I always kind of like to highlight true collaborations when you build something with somebody else or multiple people and it's so much better than you would have ever done and you're both like exhausted and energized all at the same time like that's collaboration where you're feeding off of each other's ideas and then all of a sudden you come up with a new idea that you never even cut and you don't even care whose idea was like you don't even remember because you're feeding off of each other that's like pure collaboration where you're starting to build like your team's co-intelligence and that gets you better creative results better Innovation better quality um and that's what you're shooting for where you don't feel like it's all just falling on your shoulders where you feel like you're in it with other people and and honestly that also personally drives me to like do better because I don't want to let my team members down and and so I you know challenge myself more I challenge others more in in productive ways so a collaborative environment meds just feel supportive a Cooperative environment I'll say this a collaborative environment feels more proactively supportive a group feels probably more reactively supportive in the examples that you've called out hey I'm struggling now I need some help okay I'll help you with your part okay yes no that's great and thank you because what you said up earlier was the distinction between cooperative and collaborative and I think that's exactly what you're describing you've used the word several times here that's great Trisha and and why are teams so important in today's complex world of work well why do I want a team and not a not a group yeah and and a lot of ding on groups it's like no no glim be high performing that's why I struggle sometimes with the word high performing because High performing if you have task-based work and what I mean by task-based work is work that we already know what we're doing it we're not discovering value where we know exactly like so sometimes like a configuration of a system or an installation of very like already known Dynamics like it's if you can follow a checklist you just need a group right but the minute you are in complexity the minute you have to discover value the minute you're not exactly sure you have an idea but you don't know exactly what you're building you need that creativity you need that Innovation you need that Discovery and you can't get that from just cooperation you really need that collaboration because that's where the best ideas come out is is in that co-intelligence of of the team yeah thanks for that explanation and it does serve something you were saying earlier where when you're truly collaborating and giving it all and it's draining and rewarding at the same time the solutions you're coming up with are much greater than what you could do alone right absolutely absolutely I mean like Jake and I collaborated to build that course there wasn't like a Trisha module and a jake module like you're truly and and there are things that either one of us were like never in our wildest dreams would we have thought to put that in but together as we were building that that's where it came about same with the book with Diana like that's the power that you gain because you can discover and and go into areas that either one individually might not be able to but together you can yeah thanks and for those listening um in the book If I recall correctly you do write a little bit about your collaboration together about the book kind of in a meta way right we do we own it like yeah absolutely no that's great um you talk a little bit earlier about um resilient learning teams and this idea of leader as bottleneck one thing that I like about the book is there are several fallacies that you call out and I know personally a lot of them spoke to me I'm sure they'll speak to others one of the fallacies that you say in the book you mentioned in the book is every leader needs to have all the answers how important or why is it important to recognize this fallacy and then what can a leader do to help themselves not be the bottleneck well we we ended up adding in the fallacies because this journey was hard for me for Diana for a lot of people because there are these expectations and and there are these habits that are already happening for a lot of leaders like a lot of leaders that are put into formal positions of power managerial kind of roles right they get promoted because they were good at their last job yeah well the problem is is their last job skills are not necessarily what they need in their next job but we don't necessarily train them on those next skills we don't we're like just you're promoted you're not the leader you are responsible for all of them doing this well for me I was like well I know how to handle get me getting things done I don't know how to help other people get things done so a lot of times I would over inflate my value of my previous skill set well because I can take that keyboard and code that thing then I'm a good leader and it's like oh no actually it is not a good thing sometimes and and and so we wanted to just kind of address this like not only are you gonna feel like that that's your value add because that's what you know is that previous skill set that's your comfort that's your way to not feel like an imposter that's that's that's your value add that's what you've built your career on so far you're gonna have a draw to that in addition the organization is likely going to be like well you are the expert you should know everything and you don't scale you can't scale and in fact the more you try to do that the more you are limiting um I often say the only thing stopping a team from becoming the next level of performance is the leader because if you can get a team collaborating if you can get a team kind of get starting to own that shared ownership you're really the The Hub that's kind of stopping that next level of scaling that next level performance that next level thing because your desires as a leader your comfort as a leader and then the organization's expectations um I mean I cannot even count the number of times somebody was like well you're you know you're the manager of the team you should know everything I'm like why right you mean to tell me I'm supposed to be working 80 hours a week because I have eight different people I'm like it just it doesn't if you really break it down it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and yet traditional management says that's what's expected because that's a control that's and it's all centered on task-based work not that discovery of value work okay and so it I wonder thinking about this a little bit um if it goes so hbr um Harvard Business Review podcast has some of the greatest influential leadership discoveries of the last however long and one of them I think was if I remember scientific management and and if I remember for those unfamiliar um I think it goes back almost 150 years right it's around manufacturing and and it is interesting to visualize the manager the supervisor watches others do their work and is supposed to know better than them how they should do their work right and it almost strikes as I'm hearing you talk about these traditional historical expectations of a manager that the roots are in that and that it doesn't apply to a lot of knowledge work particularly right yeah yeah and and and I'm not I don't knock some of those practices like I'm not I I mean I'll knock scientific management for specific things but on other things for for task-based work there was a reason it became common right and and it did work in certain scenarios and that's why I'm like groups work in certain scenarios and for certain types of work the problem is is we took it and and didn't acknowledge that there were two different types of work and and even in like project management like the poor person who built a bridge 17 times in Texas and was lauded as this amazing project manager and then tried to build the same bridge in Michigan and was destroyed well because once you're building the bridge in Michigan it's knowledge work it's no longer task work different weather different climate different things but yet we go oh why did you control it project manager it's like no like that in fact the more you try to control it the more likely you are going to deliver a crappy Bridge so a lot of this is It's really clicking in my mind here it's really important that we know the type of work we're doing absolutely it's not just teams are amazing it's Superior it's understanding if I'm doing task-based work what kind of work am I doing and understanding where the most valuable configuration of our people lie in order to get the best results for that right what they need in terms of an environment yep great so one of the other fallacies I wanted to touch on um there are a lot of them I could ask about but I just have two I had written down and this is one that to me does seem kind of related to a leader knowing everything but but maybe not so obviously it is fallacy everything can and should be more efficient now if I understand correctly you you you you slap me virtually if I'm wrong um efficiency is doing something fast and Effectiveness is doing something well close yes that's a general summarization people will have I add to it a little bit because yeah go ahead I I struggle with people that are like well just do it fast and I'm like but is it really efficient if it's wrong even if it's fast is it really efficient if it's not effective yeah first order fast second order pretty expensive so I don't care how fast you're going if it's still wrong and is that really efficient because now I gotta either go back and do rework or now I got to go back or we just destroy the market or we made our customers so I think in a lot of times we have to really be careful with our definition of efficiency of just going fast as a reward because fast without Effectiveness is inefficient that's great thanks for adding that on so let's talk about efficiency maybe I'm I'm misreading our situation here at least in the U.S but I feel like we're obsessed with efficiency oh we are so obsessed and what you're talking about collaboration sounds very messy Trisha I mean this sounds very expensive time for that treasure it's it's not efficient is it well and this goes back to that Dynamic of I always love it when somebody says this to me um I've heard it so many so many times and now I'm just I'm just snarky back right but it's like we don't have time to focus on the team Trisha we got to get to work who does the work the team you don't have time not to focus on the team because you don't get the work that you truly need and want without the team and it's that same concept we don't have time for learning you don't have time not to learn you don't like this efficiency dynamic when you disassociate it from the effectiveness creates just horrible results but we can all say we delivered on time sure and nobody uses it my name is Trisha Broderick I built code that met requirements was on time under budget only to never be used doesn't feel good um I love Aleister Coburn once said we got into software development to solve hard problems you can't take the problem away and only make people go fast yeah no that's great insight to bring and again it it sounds very difficult to embrace right this is all the pressure is all the momentum tells you not to all the processes many many processes many structures many expectations in organizations centered around task-based work because in task-based work that is your focus how do you go faster and because you already know the value so all that momentum and and really when you break down the agile Manifesto the items on the right and the values all Centered for task-based work the items on the left are for discovery of value and so that's why some people are always like well how are the values so you know I mean obvious and yet they are obvious and yet all the momentum in organizations are on the on the items on the right they're on the contracts they are on the processes they are on um you know those Dynamics resp you know plans and and so to truly value the items on the left to truly value those it's hard like I always say like you'll meet a true ageless when they realize they had the moment and when they went oh we could say these values but living them in an organization really really tough because all that momentum is on the right okay thanks for calling that out I'm sure a lot of people if they really process so you're referring so um Patricia you're uh I say Joe can lead to my employees recovering software engineer no you're you're originally a software engineer right when you came into the workforce and you're speaking about agile Manifesto which was designed for software development um and learning from building software and uh and for those who want to go check it out who aren't familiar um you can find uh two halves of statements kind of in this Manifesto and if you want I'll check it out but you're saying some really powerful things that I think will resonate especially with people already familiar with with agile software building and like what am I really doing as opposed to what the words might be yeah and let me give a specific example just yeah let's do that you said you're not in the agile things so one of the values is individuals interactions over processes and tools right and and you know I was leading up an area of project management at a large organization and um they told me after I hired on that I have to approve three manager level approvals of somebody purchasing a book and I was like why do we need three managers to approve a 25 book purchase they're like well because one time seven years ago someone bought a 500 book and I'm like but now everyone we buy a 500 book every time with the hidden cost of these three approvals every single time but it gives people that comfort that process well it will avoid any issues and they don't necessarily always think about all the additional issues that we're creating with that process and how we are stripping people of that autonomy and that ownership which then makes people go well if they don't even trust me to buy a 25 book how are they trusting me to deliver this work trusting me to do my job and and and I'm not saying there's no value in process oh absolutely there's value but is it really serving individuals and interactions that collaboration or is it giving everybody a false sense of security and control and we Center so much in organizations around that false sense of security and control that that's where all the momentum goes so we start hyper focusing on efficiency regardless of effectiveness yeah once again thanks I think you're saying just a lot of a lot of things that if people really start to think about their work environments it'll they'll go oh okay I I don't really want to drive anybody to drink like though that's not I'm gonna grab a sip of my watch it's it's very um like I I use this uh I use this video in my class A lot where you see this guy scraping snow off a car and he gets all the way down he has a miserable time in the video doing it and then he gets to the end and he goes to unlock his car and it's the wrong car he just scraped and I and I do think and I want to play that video for people that's out there like what's the big deal and everybody like myself from Michigan and Chicago air though right right but but I do think people are tired they're working really really hard they have really really good intentions but they don't get to be effective and that's really what drove some of the resilient learning Dynamic is is like at the end of the day going through the motions don't won't make you scrape the right car and people want to we just have to create the right environments where we let them Okay so we haven't really talked about you know in in depth yet here about what it really means to be a resilient learning team uh and one of the really the the big word in the title here is blame yeah so you talk early in the book in particular about Breaking Free from blame what does that mean what does that look like yeah an organization Diane and I went back and forth are like is is this title gonna cause people to walk away because I don't I genuinely believe that there I know everybody's gonna be like Trish I know this person but I genuinely believe there are not many leaders walking around going who can I blame today like I I genuinely do not think that people are doing that And yet when you walk around an organization there's blame all over the place and and so what we wanted to really talk about why that was happening it really builds off of what we've been talking about it's like that false sense of control that false sense of security that belief that if you control it enough you're just going to execute and deliver and and so if somebody makes a mistake we have to figure out what the mistake was so we never do that mistake again and half the time we're wasting a lot of time because you could have avoided that mistake and even if you could that doesn't mean that the next person is going to really be able to because who knows what the conditions are going to be in that and and we're not saying you can't learn like people are like oh so we just should just not care at all and I'm like no no it's a matter of really putting the effort and the time towards what you can learn not what you can pretend that you can avoid and by changing that mindset by thinking about it in terms of how does this help us move forward and what can we do the need that people have to finger point the need that people have to protect the need that people have to doing any of that just starts to diminish because it's just not the purpose but when you go in trying to go how could we have avoided this and it's a mistake that somebody made we gotta figure out the mistake now you're in a place where everybody's like oh my God I I just wanted to scrape the right car like and and and and and no one is going to be their best creative self in that kind of environment and so what we're talking about with Breaking Free of of blame is really letting go of some of those fallacies letting go of the the revisionist history where you thought you could just control it because how's it working out for you like yeah like it's not working right now and yet we keep trying harder to control it and so and instead embracing the learning for what that does help us move forward but not put people in a psychologically unsafe situation so what do we do to start moving forward towards creating a more psychologically safe environment where we can learn rather than blame yeah now I realize the irony and then I wrote a book but there is no one checklist and that's what we do call out in the book too like if if you're looking and trust me I tried finding one I did but but every team is different every organization is different every person is different and so there isn't just this like automatic step that you have to do what we instead highlighted and kind of said is like you have to think about the environment as that learning leader and going what needs to be true in the environment that's going to promote less blame more learning and and so we really went with like you need to be focusing on what we call the essential motivators and then also the resilience factors and and what order you do those in and what ways you do those can vary but like if those things are not solid you will not move into that resilient learning kind of environment but there is no chronological so we wrote the book a little bit of a okay we're gonna really focus on conflict and just dive into that part of the book and and versus somebody that's like oh we've like we really have to work on one of the essential motivators and because there is no pure order no checklist for it one of the parts I love in in the book is um for anyone listening here it could just be worth it almost to to get the um very specifically mapped out retrospectives and meeting facilitation tactics that you all put in here for someone who might be like okay I just I just want to do one action that could enable moving forward in the right direction what do I even do and retrospectives um as you all call out in the book something that is looking back on how a team is working together but it's it's really not been adopted outside of software nearly as much as it probably could be probably any team can retrospect right um but when it comes to building resilience within your team why is a retrospective so important yeah so these retrospectives are existing outside of software they call them Lessons Learned they call them post-mortems which is a horrible name after death like seriously who does that meaning but the problem is is most of the time again to my to comment earlier you're walking into those going what will we avoid next time which is just not you're spending a lot of time trying to think of some of the things you're going to avoid and then the problem is you're going to try so desperately to avoid those things that you might actually be creating new problems because you're avoiding something that would have worked for this side so so they do exist outside of software um we use we wanted to build off of obviously Diana's work in in Esther Derby's work in in agile retrospectives and and we decided like with this although we couldn't give people a checklist we definitely did want to go here here's an actual design of a retrospective we would run that would focus on helping the team to have a conversation about conflict yeah yeah and because you don't want to go through the motions I I literally sat in in a retrospective um that was like what did we do well communication what are we going to improve communication what are we going to do communicate more I'm like oh my gosh just like just shoot me like that is just and that was gen and it wasn't just the notes for one retro it was like three Retros in a row and I was like I can't I can't and but but I think the reality is is it's it is scary for people to talk about conflict or talk about power dynamics or talk about these things that so we we wanted to give people an example design not like the soul design for for doing it but in a full-blown timing example design in the book with it to where at the end of the day to build these resilient learning teams you don't get to just tell them their resilient learning team you have to help them collaborate you have to help them have these conversations you have to help them deal with these Dynamics and these factors that can derail A team's togetherness and and and create the right environment where these discussions can happen so but you got to build up to it right and and not just start off like today we're going to talk about conflict you've never been in a retro before like you're gonna like Panic people right but but we wanted to provide a little bit of tangible like examples with it because this stuff is hard like it like people are always like oh it's so scary to talk about conflictation it's scary to facilitate a conversation about conflict in a team and and so if you're not learning how to do those skills well it's going to be harder to help your team engage in those discussions and so we that was the motivation behind it uh uh um although there were times that were like should we put that in the back of the book and we're like no it's it's right there and we're just gonna incorporate it with it with each chapter as we're going forward no that's great thanks and also thanks for calling out the lessons learned and uh and postmortems and things um last year I I had the the fortune of speaking to uh Maria ocher Lund who is the co-author of the sixth edition of creating effective teams and they did a meta-analysis a meta analysis on teams that do reflect uh and look at their work and they you know have Quantified it that they're like 30 35 percent more effective but as you're saying she also echoed this comment that you don't just start there you have to be building trust is an overused word maybe but you're building things within your team I love that way we bring in this back together if I'm the leader of a self-organizing team what do I do now right well yeah well your job's just beginning sir because there's a lot of things that at that point we're we're we are delivering we are getting things done but that's not the full potential and and that took me a long time to kind of realize because I was like what my team's great and I was like oh we are we are avoiding that topic and and that does have an impact in terms of what we produce yeah thank you well we're coming to a close here Trisha oh my goodness I know can you believe how fast um I'd encourage everybody to check out the book I have it here in my hand and on Audible just so you know um and um there's a lot to be learned from reading through this book and I think a lot resonates with people in their different work environments so I'd encourage folks to check it out before we uh close it out I'll ask you the question I ask everyone which is what is something you've learned recently uh uh out of it that I'm still working on it and then I'll think of a business related one um I am my goal for 2023 is to learn how to do a handstand oh wow um and uh I am making progress but it is slow and uh I was super happy like a week ago I had I held a handstand for like three and a half four seconds have not been able to do it again since but progress right so that is I am actively like trying to learn that right that's my my personal big learn for 2023. I will just jump in and maybe buy you five more seconds to think what I will say is hands down uh coolest answer I've ever heard so far thank you it just genuinely is like the first thing um that I'm doing and and I I'm laughing because I I do post my progress like once at the end of each month I reflect on my progress um but work wise um I am learning um I actually did a session yesterday I am people have this um impression of me uh she's she's been on the agile Alliance board of directors she's she's been an executive she speaks internationally she's a book author she's all these things she's and I'm extremely extroverted I know that was shocking I mean I I know I just surprised you right there but um and I I'm often very vulnerable like anything people are willing to go I try to be as vulnerable and authentic because I have the privilege to say things that maybe some others don't have and I I really take to heart that responsibility and what that means but I am currently learning just how much my own imposter syndrome holds me back um and in ways that I have to really embrace my courage in ways that surprise people because they're like you just literally said I'm like yeah but I know what I'm saying and I'm willing to be vulnerable about that and then there's this where I was terrified to write this book I was like oh what if people hate it what if people what if I destroyed Diana's career like a reputation like I mean just absolutely terrified and yet I I I challenged myself because I was not gonna pass down this opportunity to to work with Diana but also to pay forward what other people have helped me with but it's hard and and I am still trying to learn especially as now an independent um with my own company uh how do I not let that imposter syndrome hold me back and and really see what else is potential and what else is out there and and that is something I'm I I am actively learning about and and doing and finding tips for myself and and what helps and what doesn't and and working on it well thanks for being vulnerable and sharing that with us that's great thank you um in your own words the extremely extroverted Trisha Broderick there's a reason I'm on this side of the microphone and you're on that side um uh no for the for those who are interested Trisha in either your book Services however you want to answer it where would you like to direct them um I my website's probably best at uh ignite iii.com uh LinkedIn is also I go live once a month um actually now twice because Diane and I also go live once a month for a lead without blade I roped her into that that's great uh but LinkedIn is the other way to really easily reach me um I technically am on Twitter but not really and I'm trying to get on Mastodon but it's you know it's not my go-to so LinkedIn and my website are probably the best ways to reach me that sounds good ignite iii.com right correct perfect well thanks so much for sharing some of your time Trisha it's been a pleasure for me to talk to you and I know that others will get a lot out of our discussion and and ultimately out of the book as well so thank you so much today thank you for having me okay