S2E10: The First 90 Days of Transition with Michael Watkins

Michael Watkins came on the show to talk about a variety of topics related to transitioning into a new role. You can find Michael at:
www.genesisadvisers.com (Website)
https://news.genesisadvisers.com/ (News Page)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeldwatkins/ (LinkedIn)

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The Importance of Transitions 

• we go through so many of them
• they're times when there's a lot at stake
• oftentimes there's an overlay of multiple transitions at once

Clean Break During Transition

• two roles in parallel is too tough
• the point of transitioning at all is to move to the new role
• usually the difficulties are the result of poor planning
• wrap thing up in your old job quickly

Promotions

• delegation looks different after a promotion
• you're now communicating from a distance
• you might be leading former peers

Onboarding at a New Company

• usually this is a lateral move
• culture and politics are usually the reason for failure here, not competence

STARS Framework

• Startup, Turnaround, Accelerated growth, Realignment, Sustained success
• understanding which context is important

Culture

• layers of values, behaviors, and language
• real values don't necessarily match what's written on the walls  

 Learning

• gain actionable insight asap in your new role
• have a living learning agenda
• identify sources of actionable insight
• be systematic in asking questions
• active listening is a critical skill

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Michael Watkins has spent the past two decades working with leaders, both corporate and public, as they transition to new roles, negotiate the future of their organizations, and craft their legacy as leaders. A recognized expert in his field, he ranked among Thinkers50’s top fifty management influencers globally in 2019. He is the best-selling author of The First 90 Days, Updated and Expanded: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter, the globally acknowledged handbook for leadership and career transitions, which recently earned the accolade of Amazon’s Top 100 Leadership Books. He is Professor of Leadership and Organizational Change at the IMD Business School in Switzerland and previously served on the faculty at INSEAD and Harvard University, where he earned his PhD in Decision Sciences.

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==========

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Transcript

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Jason Wick: Okay, welcome back everybody to another episode of leadership voyage. I am fortunate enough to be here with Michael Watkins, Michael. It is really nice to meet you this morning for me this afternoon, for you

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Michael Watkins (he/him): delighted to be able to be with you.

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Jason Wick: Great! Thank you so much. I just found out. You're in. You said certain your Zurich right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I am. I've lived in Zurich for gosh, over 10 years now, just outside it's really it's called Silicon. I teach at our business school in Switzerland, and was on called Imb

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Jason Wick: Beautiful.

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Jason Wick: That's so cool. Yeah, I didn't realize I was just complaining about how early it was for me. But this is a wonderful compromise. So thank you again for taking some time today

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Jason Wick: for those who are or aren't familiar with your work. You've been a leadership consultant for over 20 years right now. Genesis, a genesis advisors is the group, and you wrote the book the first 90 days which has

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Jason Wick: has maybe a life of its own. After 20 years, or however long it's been out, it's sold over a 1 million and a half copies. I was thinking about it this morning. I was like, what's that equivalent to in? You know, the fiction world like? Maybe a John Grisham novel or something. I don't know it's really cool to see.

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Jason Wick: And you're on the thinkers 50 list, which, for those who are unaware, is a list that comes out every 2 years now, and has the 50 most influential with thinkers in the world of business and management. And

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Jason Wick: i'm wondering, hearing all those bullet points, you know. How does it feel knowing that you've had such a significant impact on the leadership and management communities around the world?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah. So I have 2 reactions. Right? One is, you know, you say, 20 years, and I think, yeah, I was in my late teens, Jason, when I started down the road of you know, doing your after work. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the first chapter, right? It's the other. Actually have it. You know it's it's kind of I I think of myself as the accidental Guru right? Because I was never

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Michael Watkins (he/him): like to become a management thinker per se right? I was very interested in the subject. I was

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Michael Watkins (he/him): at the Harvard Business School. At the time I was actually teaching negotiation. My Phd. Was in game theory and decision theory.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and I just got interested in this subject of leadership transitions, and I got interested in it in part because I was teaching in a program with experience, leaders about or change which I thought I knew if i'm not about, and one of them put up their hand and said to me, Professor Watkins, you seem to be assuming that I know the organization. I know the people. I know where the bodies are buried.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I understand the culture, and you know, armed with all that knowledge I can, I can chase the world right. I can say what if i'm new on the job? I don't know any of those things right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I'm like, you know, the split the split screen kind of happens. 1 one side is saying, Wow! Really interesting. Across the other side is, I have no idea how to answer this question, right? So So that was the input. As for the for this voyage, right this journey, and and it's been awesome, right? I, you know, even after 20 years I remain fascinated by leadership transitions. I worked extensively with

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Michael Watkins (he/him): senior leaders, taking new roles. I'm learning things all the time. I'm writing things all the time. So it's been a It's been wonderful

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Jason Wick: thanks for sharing all that, and and I appreciate the anecdote of the students saying, you're assuming all these things, and and that's great. I think

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Jason Wick: understanding our context is is everything. And so thanks for sharing all of that.

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Jason Wick: The book itself, which I think is going to be. The kind of the foundation, for most of our discussion is is indeed about transitions, and all that goes along with that. But before we kind of dive into a a variety of topics around it.

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Jason Wick: You did. You mentioned you? You had Phd. In game theory and decision theory. I think you just said. I did notice that, and wasn't aware of it, and I was wondering before we dive in.

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Jason Wick: if you could just share one important piece of advice with us about decision making or something that you want us all to know about decision making. What would it be?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So it it actually connects fairly deeply to making successful transitions right? Because, as you're taking a new role.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you're gonna feel internal pressure to start to make decisions and take action. I call it the action imperative right that internal pressure. Oh, you know. Jason says to himself, I need to prove myself. I need to show whoever they are, that they make the right choice and putting me in this role.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and that can lead you to make decisions. Perhaps before you're as informed as you need to be, you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And so I always say, basically like, think about balancing, you know, almost like a triangle, right of learning and connecting on on one side.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): deciding and acting on the other and reflecting and planning on the bottom right and sort of You're moving around that that cycle, and Don't get driven to making consequential decisions too early right now. Sometimes you have to right. I. I work with the leader

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Michael Watkins (he/him): a while back, who took a role, and she had to deliver a strategic plan for her new organization in 2 weeks. No negotiation, right? So okay, like things like that happen right? But far more often in my experience, Jason. It's the internal pressure to app and decide

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that can get people into fairly deep trouble right? And so just make sure you're balancing the learning and connecting piece with the deciding and acting piece. If you're going to make early decisions, you know, try to make ones that Aren't.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah.

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Jason Wick: are kind of it totally reversible, or we're really big.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Years ago I talked to the then CEO of of Cbs and and he's. He said something. I always remember the boat about this, he said. I want people to think early on

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that. I'm. Decisive, but I've decided not to decide yet on some key issues.

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Jason Wick: Did you say that one more time

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Michael Watkins (he/him): too too much people to think he's decisive, but has decided not to decide yet on some key issues right. And so he'd make some really very low, You know. Kind of

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Michael Watkins (he/him): risk decisions that people go. Wow, you know. Jason. Wow, You know he's in there. He's making decisions right, and that sort of bottom, you know the time to embed himself more deeply in the deeper issues that he was facing, and make good decisions about them.

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Jason Wick: What a cool framing you know it's like I want. I want to have the identity, or I want others to perceive me as a decisive person.

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Jason Wick: and and therefore your you know that. I

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Jason Wick: Yeah, yeah, I could decide. I could just sit at any time. But I've decided not to. That's a cool. That's a cool compromise like with ourselves. I I love that. That that's brilliant.

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Jason Wick: Well, thanks for sharing that wisdom and

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Jason Wick: balancing the learning and connecting with the with the acting and deciding. Thank you for sharing that, Michael.

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Jason Wick: So the first 90 days updated and expanded proven strategies for getting up to speed faster and smarter is all about transitions.

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Jason Wick: I'll be honest with you. I've been managing off and on in some capacity since about 2,006, but I had never read the book, and I read it this year, and it is like

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Jason Wick: an encyclopedia. I I was telling my wife.

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Jason Wick: boy. I feel like every page is just

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Jason Wick: filled with with wisdom. So thank you for that. First of all.

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Jason Wick: Why do you think that?

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Jason Wick: Yeah. Why do you think the topic of transitions is so important.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So it's funny. I was looking at your linkedin profile, Jason. And then, you know, when I look at people's looked in profiles. I count the number of jobs they've had right, because that's equivalent in some sense kind of to the number of transitions you've gone through, and I count 10 right in your in your in your profile.

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Jason Wick: And I think that's one of the key messages, I say, which is like You're gonna go through lots of transitions and

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Michael Watkins (he/him): do roles in your in your career, right? Your midpoint, maybe not quite in your career. So you maybe got another 10 ahead of you, right. And so the sooner you learn to be good at making transitions the better.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And transitions are times when there's typically a lot at stake. Right? You're excited, but you're also concerned you're You're relatively vulnerable at moments like that. You've got to find ways to create momentum. And so, being thoughtful and systematic about it is really really important.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then, if you look at it from the point of view of organizations. you've got

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Michael Watkins (he/him): hundreds, thousands of people going into new roles, you know, every month

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Michael Watkins (he/him): here, whatever the numbers are right.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and there's huge stakes for the organization and getting people up to speed faster right? So there's both a personal piece to it and an organizational piece to it.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: 10 jobs. That sounds like a lot, Thank you.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And I actually, before you go on. So so it's really gone. One question I always ask both to sorry. I know this is a reverse interview, and I forgive me for that.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): The toughest job transition you personally went through. What was it?

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Jason Wick: The toughest transition I ever went through? Was it was about 6 years ago, and

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Jason Wick: I was. I was asked to

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Jason Wick: to start leading a team that was really struggling and going through a lot of adversity.

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Jason Wick: and at the same time that there was a business need to have someone try to lead this group

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Jason Wick: through through turnaround or realignment? I'm not sure which one it is actually thinking right in this on the spot. I also was taking on a new scope of managing folks in which they were much more technical than I was accustomed to.

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Jason Wick: So it's a great example, right? And it's a great example for a couple of reasons. I mean. First of all, I love talking to people about the toughest transitions they've experienced, because it's often you know it's also often a learning crucible for people.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And so there's you know. There's several dimensions, and most people taking new roles or going through multiple transitions in parallel, right? And you described a couple right. One is the turnaround scenario that you're put into with the new team.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and the other is leading a different kind of person, right deeply expert, technically congratulations you weren't.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know. How do you build credibility in a situation like that? How do you create value in a situation like that. Right? So it's so. It's a great example of some key things like you can face, and and there is often this overlay of different transitions going on

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and taking the time to kind of pull that apart and say, Well, you know, okay, i'm doing this. I'm translating that way. Which of these is hard? What's making this hard overall?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Those are, I think, very useful questions to be to be asking yourself

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Jason Wick: when we talk about going through a transition. either

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Jason Wick: a new role internally for us in the same organization or coming from the outside. It presents some similar challenges and some distinct challenges, at least in my read and my interpretation.

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Jason Wick: We've got so many things we can delve in, dive into here that I just kind of picked a handful we can get into and see where we end up, but

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Jason Wick: folks who get promoted internally so they're going, I guess, in my example. Here I don't even remember, from his promotion. But it was a transition for sure. So

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Jason Wick: you talk about the importance of a clean break.

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Jason Wick: and this stood out to me as something that I think so at least in my experience. Is is this something that's difficult because of keep doing that old thing, or or whatever it might be, you know, while you're doing your new thing. And

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Jason Wick: i'm curious. What what does success look like with a clean break in your eyes?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I guess. First of all those 2 examples you gave Jason a promotion and onboarding there 2 examples. I use a lot to talk about differences in types of transition. So maybe let's get into that. After I answer the the immediate question, you know. Look it, it! It's all too common that people are asked to play 2 roles in parallel.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And that is terrible on multiple levels, right? Because the whole point of having a transition is to get, be able to focus on the new role and get up to speed.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And if you're consuming 80% of your effort trying to close off what you're doing before. and usually that's because there wasn't good planning. you know, in putting in place a replacement for you. There was no logical success, or whatever. The reasons are, you're kind of entangled in that.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): It's it's negative for you. And again it's negative for the organization, right and so doing the test you can to wrap things up as quickly as you can.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Some colleagues and I actually late last year, wrote an article earlier this year, one of the other about how to how to quit well like not not quit as in Quit the the company. But how do you how to lead? Leave a team? Well.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right. That leaving process right. and and it's kind of related because it's really about. How do you negotiate expectations about what you're going to do to access At the same time, how do you kind of deal with the emotional dynamics of leaving the team that you've been with? Right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So yeah, it's. It's unfortunately all to

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know much. The case that you're asked to play these 2 roles. and then the best you can do is figure out how to wrap things up as as quickly as possible, and put the energy where it really should be, which is on

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Michael Watkins (he/him): on getting to speed up to speed and new rules. but not on the issue of promotions versus

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Michael Watkins (he/him): on boarding. If it's okay to go there.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Well, and so, you know. you're promoted. But and let's assume you're promoted in the same organization right? Because if you're moving to another organization, that's some combination of promotion and onboarding going on. But it's the same here.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): promoted in the same organization, right. Those sorts of questions that you need to be asking yourself, and the sorts of changes you go through are around things like, how do I delegate effectively in the new

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right. because what may have been effective delegation at the level below it looks like micro management at the new level. and so rethinking delegation. How do I communicate when I'm. At a greater distance

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Michael Watkins (he/him): from the front line? How does that change? Is there a substantial change in the political

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Michael Watkins (he/him): dynamics at the new level that i'm not. Do I need to show up differently in some way My my press does. My presence have to be different than

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Michael Watkins (he/him): it was, you know. that's common to any promotion, and then promotions in place. It can be. you know, leading former peers. which is really hard in its own right right? Because you may have people who think they should have got the job.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): or you may have people, you know, who are not sure. You know they want to be led by you Necessarily right.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And how do you like the right balance, you know, in both continuing to, you know, motivate the team, but also exert your authority without becoming. You know. Napoleon, Those are some classic, you know. Classic. Ca: challenges you case when you're promoted.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): When you look at onboarding into new companies.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): It's very often lateral Moved right. You were a director at your own company. Now you're maybe a director of senior director at the new one. Yeah, sometimes it's promotion right sometimes, but but very often it's not You're brought in sort of lateral, the but the expectation that you'll go out.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So you know. Let's say you're a Vp. Coming in from the outside.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You don't necessarily need to learn to be a Vp. Right? What you need to learn about more is the culture and politics of the new organization that you're starting. Yeah.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And what the research shows you on and on that some research on this, that the biggest reasons why people on boarding fail have nothing to do typically with their confidence or their decision-making. Ability

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and it's everything to do with them running a foul of the culture

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Michael Watkins (he/him): or not building the right political connections, right? Not not working effectively with peers. And so it's a it's just a really different dynamic. And then, of course, sometimes you've got the both right, and that makes it. That makes it really challenging.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): But the but the key point here is, you know, focus on the right things. If you're on boarding, you know you want to be putting a fair amount of focus on how do I learn about the culture? How do I, you know, avoid becoming? You know the

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the the virus that gets attacked by the immune system metaphorically right, you know, whereas in promotion it's really. How do I want to show up

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Michael Watkins (he/him): in the context of that new, that new rule?

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Jason Wick: And i'm seeing a connection. If if you think where the decision making question kind of relates to onboarding here, you don't want to jump in

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Jason Wick: and disrupt, I mean eventually, you will, of course, but take that time right, and and really try to understand what's going on, and and listen and watch, and all that kind of stuff.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So. Yes, but and I think you hit it. You hit it earlier when you were talking about. Am I in a turnaround or a realignment? You know one of the frameworks in the book that I think people have found really helpful is the one you were sort of alluding to, Which is the stars framework right, start up turnaround, accelerated growth, realignment, sustaining success.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): The relative balance of learning versus doing really very dramatically among those right. You're in a you're in a turnaround, and the alarm bells are going off, and the lights are flashing, and you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yep. it's

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Michael Watkins (he/him): completely acceptable that you'll come in and you'll start to do things pretty quickly, right? And maybe some really hard things have to happen pretty quickly, and it's not typically dangerous to do that, because you've got.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know the case for change. It's been made for you, right. But the the metaphorical, you know, burning platform is present.

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Jason Wick: Yup

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Michael Watkins (he/him): realignment or sustaining success.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know. Typically, you're gonna spend a lot longer on the learning curve to make sure you really understand things before you start making choices, you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So it's not necessarily always the case, I guess, with my point that onboarding means go slow on boarding means to be really thoughtful about

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Jason Wick: the right pacing.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Given the the the situation that you're in right for you coming into that turnaround is an example.

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Jason Wick: No, thank you. And and yeah for those listening who we're gonna be checking out the book. The stars model that Michael that you just referred to you, you said in a realignment or a sustaining success. Maybe you're you're taking that and picking more time. Again. It's context driven, which, of course, makes sense.

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Jason Wick: Going back to your example of someone out there went through a lateral move to a different organization.

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Jason Wick: And let's just say they are sustaining success or something like that. In this context

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Jason Wick: they're gonna under. Try to understand and take the time to really digest what the culture is that they are on boarding into. And I I to ask people this question in in your words: what is culture.

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Jason Wick: And why is it important to understand the culture you're in?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Sure? So

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So what is culture? Right? So I use an old model of culture that we really came out from a guy named Edgar Shine at Mit. That looks at culture as kind of a set of layers of

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Michael Watkins (he/him): important things to focus on right, and the top layer is is the the shared language, the organization.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right? So you know, you think about the organization you

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work for. Make music right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): there. There's gonna be a language of that organization, right? That you need to speak acronyms that people use references. They make

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that if you don't understand that language. You have a a tough time figuring out what's going on, and

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you sound like an outsider right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And so the linguistic dimension of culture is an important one. At the very base level is things like values.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know core beliefs what people believe to be true, what they believe to be important it can.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and organizations do have values. It's not typically the values that are up on the little value chart on the wall, I mean sometimes those match, but often they do not right. It's it's the real value set of the organization.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and it typically takes you longer to to get into understanding those things.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then there's the really critical middle level which is behavioral norms. It's how we do things here. It's what's acceptable behaviors and unacceptable behaviors. What are the behavioral patterns that we see operating.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and I pay a lot of attention with the folks like coach to

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Michael Watkins (he/him): look at that level and make sure you're really tuning into. How do things get done here, even if you're there to change it? It's important to tune in and understand that you know. and I and I sort of alluded to the, you know, immune logical metaphor

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Michael Watkins (he/him): of organizational culture. Right? I sometimes say, look, culture is like your organization's immune system.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): It's there to prevent bad things and bad people from surviving inside the body of the organization, and you know you do the wrong things. Your virus, your bacteria.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know, antibodies are secreted, you know, killer t cells pump around you, and ultimately you're either digested or expelled from the organism. Yeah. So it's a very biological process in a sense.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And to continue that metaphor, your job and part is, if you're there, to change the culture is to kind of fool the immune system into accepting you right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): so that you can begin to. I'll keep pushing this metaphor. All stuff. And i'm gonna inject New DNA into the organism.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah. So that's sort of the way. I kind of think about it. By the way, that conceptualization of culture is also very helpful for driving transformation in organizations, because it says, Look one way to do it is to introduce new language and new and new concepts into the organization that's that link goes to clear.

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Jason Wick: Another really powerful thing is, you know, use the incentive system and other

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Michael Watkins (he/him): tools to reshape People's behavior because we know, if you change people's behavior over time it'll shift their attitudes. Right? So cultures like a model of culture, is helpful. Not just for onboarding. It's also helpful when you start thinking about

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Michael Watkins (he/him): driving transformation of organizations.

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Jason Wick: And in that last bit you you're referring to rewarding people for

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Jason Wick: the behaviors that we want to see.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Exactly right.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So you come into an organization, and people are, you know, behaving in too much a siloed way, hypothetically right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And you're leading a team of these people, and to your shock and surprise you find they're being incentivized to operate basically independence.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Wow. So maybe you think about okay. How do I reshape the

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the you know incentive system to emphasize more of the

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the group.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): The group behavior, right? The group Accomplishment. Right? A very simple.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): A very simple example.

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Jason Wick: Okay.

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Jason Wick: Thank you. No. I'm taking the immune system metaphor. So thanks for going with that. And also I really do appreciate the the description you're providing of culture, whether it's your own or you've taken it from from another, or you've refined it where we have these these layers with values, behaviors and language, and and so thanks for that, I think that that'll resonate with with people to think through the different layers rather than one sentence that

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Jason Wick: captures call culture. Maybe maybe a little too simply. In some cases I think it is too simple. Jason: okay, yeah, no, thank you, Michael. Wonderful

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Jason Wick: As I said, tons of different topics, we can jump into about transitions. I'm just going to hop into a couple more here while we have our time together.

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Jason Wick: Okay, what strikes me that effectively transitioning is predicated on effectively learning.

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Jason Wick: So whether we're talking about transitions, or just the process of learning anywhere, however, you choose to interpret the question. What are some of the things that you think we should be dialed into in order to be learning effectively?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah, I'm: i'm going to preface it by saying that it's changed over time and interesting ways, right? So So the original version of the first 9 days was written in 2,003.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): The second edition came out in 2,013,

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and I'm. In the process of finishing up the third edition right now, right and so much it's changed in that time right, for example, hybrid work, right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): or remote work. And so how you need to learn about an organization when you take a new role it's just it's different than it was in 2,003, and it was different than it was in 2,013. And and it's it's it's things like that that mean. I have to.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know, periodic. You produce these new additions because the important things change right? So I just want to stipulate that.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So look. You know I see 2 foundations to make them successful transitions. Right there. It's learning, and it's connecting. And if you don't, do enough of either, both of those you're kind of setting yourself up for difficulty

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Michael Watkins (he/him): with the learning piece. The name of the game is really how do you gain as much actionable insight? Early enough as early as possible

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Michael Watkins (he/him): to begin to make the right choices focus on the right things. Figure out how you're going to create value and the new role.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know, build the the alliances with the right stakeholders, and so on. Right? So learning is absolutely a foundation. and the faster and more effectively you can learn

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the quicker you're able to do those critical things right? So that's kind of the the logic, if you will, for why learning is so important, and transitions kind of obvious. But there it is.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then there's the okay great.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): How do I speed up that process? Right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And that's where I think the the action really happens. I, the way I frame it is. How do I? You know, Garner. as much actionable insight as early as possible? That's the way I kind of frame the problem right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then I think there's a few things that flow from that right. First of all being clear about what you need to learn

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Right so. And I have this little framework that relates to the conversation we just had about technical, cultural and political learning. Technical is products, markets, technologies, competitors, systems, processes, right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): culture of what we just talked about, political power, influence, networks and organizations. Now.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): i'm thinking about okay? Well, what's the relative balance of those things that I need to focus on right, and it will be different, depending on the kind of transition you're going to.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): but just getting clear on

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Michael Watkins (he/him): what are the most important things I need to learn about this organization, right? And fixing yourself on that.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): knowing that that's going to change right. That's a living.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): That's a living agenda, right? It's not. It's not a once, and for a for for all right. It's gonna be need to be updated on a regular basis, but it's good to have a learning agenda as a starting point. Right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So that's partly part B is what are the best sources of actionable insight.

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Jason Wick: Where do I go to learn what I need to learn? Right? Is it this this report? Is it that person

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know, is it is it the the long-standing, you know, employee, who is the natural historian of the organization? Is it my Hr person who can give me insight into the culture of the place.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Right it's it's it's thinking about the sources of insight. and where to go to learn, you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and then the so that's part

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Michael Watkins (he/him): part a the agenda like the sources of actionable insight.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): part c.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Are there things I can do to be a little more systematic in how I go about learning that will speak the process of Yeah. And in the book I give some ideas about that. But one simple one that I I use sometimes as an example is.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know, I inherit a a a new team, right? Because typically in most cases, leaders don't get to build their teams.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah, they get to inherit a team, and they need to assess and up all of it into their team, right? And that's a really interesting process. It's something I

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Michael Watkins (he/him): work with a lot with my clients about literally putting in place a team evolution plan.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): as it were right for thinking about how to how to how to do that

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Michael Watkins (he/him): now. Applying learning to the team. You want to be assessing that team early. You want to get some insight into the the team. It's dynamics.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): The relative strength of people on the team. You can be systematic in doing that right. I always recommend that folks.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know, identify 4 or 5 key questions and ask everyone the same set of questions

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Michael Watkins (he/him): like.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): How do you see our strengths where you see our vulnerabilities? What's the biggest opportunities you can use? Slot or something as a framework, if you want.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): If you were me, what would you be focusing on. and just the simple act of being systematic and asking everyone the same questions

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Michael Watkins (he/him): generates insight, and it generates insight where people agree. It generates insight where people disagree. It generates insight into the people.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You can feed back what you've learned people go. Wow! Jason's picked up a lot in a short time. but you also learn something from the reactions of the team as you feed back what you've learned. And so I it's a very simple example of how just being a little bit systematic and the learning process can really accelerate.

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Jason Wick: Does that make sense, Jason? It does. If i'm hearing you correctly have a living, learning agenda about what you intend to to to glean in these in these well in all stages, because, as we said, living

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Jason Wick: second.

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Jason Wick: try to identify the sources of actionable insight, and when speaking with these folks, be systematic in your approach to, I guess, interviewing essentially interviewing them.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Exactly. That's exactly right. By the way, that last piece you you just mentioned is not a small piece right? Being good at active listening.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): it turns out to be like a profoundly important scale for making successful transitions.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You've got to be able to listen actively and well, you know.

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Jason Wick: Yeah. And, boy, it's a

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Jason Wick: It's a tiring thing to continually do. Yeah, no, that's great. I can't. I can't resist jumping on one not negatively jumping onto something that you said about Swat, which is St.

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Jason Wick: Excuse me, Swot strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats. In the second edition of the book, which is the one that I just read from 2,013. It suggests toes.

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Jason Wick: threats, opportunities.

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Jason Wick: weaknesses, and strengths. And it talks about doing that order, because we're talking about certain elements of that framework where we're a valid, we waiting outside of our company and certain elements we're evaluating inside of our company.

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Jason Wick: This is perhaps tangential to a lot of what we're talking about, but I I kind of can't resist since you said it. If you wouldn't mind going in a little more deeply into folks who are doing swat analyses, and why you suggest a toes analysis.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Sure. So so you know, these are examples of little things where I kinda like to dig in and figure out where something came from, and maybe offer a little bit of a contrarian point of view. Right? That's probably a personality flaw. But there it is right, Jason.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): But no, so so here's the thing right. I was doing lots of swat with with teams, you know

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I still do some. but I do it with toes, and i'll talk about why

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and what I was finding was, You know i'm sitting down with you and the rest of the team. And i'm saying, okay, what's our strengths? Hmm. Hmm. You know. Hmm. Yeah, I guess I'm. You know i'm a pretty good badminton player. I don't know right.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know. What are my weaknesses? Well, I never want to talk about my weaknesses. I don't have any or or you know i'll pick some tiny little thing I mean. I'm joking right. But what I what I found was asking people about an organization's strengths and weaknesses tended to become a very

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Michael Watkins (he/him): abstract, not terribly useful a conversation.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): whereas if we started off saying, what are the threats we face? Okay. Yeah, we can talk about that, you know. I

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We've got this competitor doing this. We've got this, you know Government Agency doing that right? We could pretty quickly identify those things.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): What are some of our biggest opportunities? Well, we could launch a new product in that space, right? We could

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Michael Watkins (he/him): participate in this forum. You. You can have a very concrete discussion, typically typically right with teams about threats and on the threats. Yeah, threats and opportunities.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then you say, okay, given the threats are, Are we vulnerable? And yes, so what are the weaknesses we have that make us want? And you can see, okay, we got these opportunities.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know our our strengths helpful in realizing those opportunities. And now we're really talking about weaknesses and strengths in any useful way, right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And so that's why I I do it the way I do it. And actually, you know, I actually just finished writing the chapter

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Michael Watkins (he/him): for the new addition, and I've kept that, and I've actually given more instruct, more instructions on how to give how to how to do that with your team right? Because I do think it's really valuable to to do that.

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Jason Wick: I look forward to it. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): No, no. So so so you know again, thinking I I do on these things.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): you know one of the most important things I think you do

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Michael Watkins (he/him): as a leader is. Make sure that your team has a shared view of reality.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Hmm. Right. If you don't have a shared view of reality as a team. you have a look, a very large problem for a for a variety of reasons.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right? And so tools like swat tools like stars, are actually quite useful ways of making sure you're on the same page right? Because in the act of doing that. You're kind of helping the team create a shared understanding of. These are our

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Michael Watkins (he/him): threats, and these are our opportunities, and these are our strengths.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and these are our weaknesses, right? So I like. And likewise I I do something somewhere with teams around stars. Right? I did it with a team.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): No, not a big

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Michael Watkins (he/him): a vision Care company 2 weeks ago, right? We've got different business units within the larger structure.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Are we? All agreed that that's in turn around. That's a real line that's sustaining success, and they work. So we had a great conversation about it right and again the but the point is getting that team

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Michael Watkins (he/him): anchored in a shared view of reality, which is then a foundation for figuring out what you're gonna do.

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Jason Wick: Thank you for adding that it something that struck me as you said that was in Jim Collins book. Good to great. There's there's the the section

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Jason Wick: face the brutal facts, and never but never lose faith or something like that right? Those 2 just connected for me. I love that. We all need to see the same reality of what we're facing, and in this case the threats and opportunities, and our own strengths and weaknesses. And then how are we going to move forward together around it?

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Jason Wick: That's great. Yeah. And I mean I. What I add to that, too, is, how do we make sure we stay anchored in reality?

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Jason Wick: Hmm.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Right? How do we sense. How do we have the right systems and processes to sense and respond to what's going on in the environment? Right? Because if you don't again, the whole team may diverge from reality, you know, which is also not a good thing. Yeah.

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Jason Wick: Speaking of teams diverging from reality, one of the last questions I wanted to ask is when someone's taking over a new team where and, as you said earlier, oftentimes we are not starting our own team or building our own team. We are inheriting a team or something like that.

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Jason Wick: It's not necessarily the most fun thing to think about, but as as a new leader with a new team, You know we are assessing, assessing our team, and perhaps it's related to toes. What are our strengths and weaknesses to? So

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Jason Wick: what advice do you have for us on a good way to go about assessing a a new team that we're we're taking on.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah. So so I think just before we get directly to that.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Just wind back a bit right, which is for most leaders. The team is the largest source of leverage they have. Right, You're just one person alone. You can't do much. So a question I always push people on in

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Michael Watkins (he/him): coaching on transitions is.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): how will you gain leverage? You know how you amplify yourself is another way to think about it, right? And that could be building the right relationships that alliances.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): It could be like

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Michael Watkins (he/him): averaging that new technology, you know, to make work more efficient. But usually the team

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Michael Watkins (he/him): is the number one source of leverage or amplification, right? So the so it's really important that you get the team in place. Point 1.2. When you arrive. It's typically not the team. You need

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Michael Watkins (he/him): It's not. It's certainly not your team. It may become your team.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): But typically there's also work you need to do to evolve that membership with that team, the focus of that team the way that team collaborates to really do

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Michael Watkins (he/him): what you need to do, and that's the work right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I'm going to teach you right. You said you said it can sound a little teleporting. It's actually anything but that right to me it's endlessly fascinating to do this because because most leaders I work with, they go.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): They know this right. They know how important getting the right team at some place. So, even though it can be a bit of a grind to go through it. The fact of the

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Jason Wick: you know the impact and the implications really drives the interest.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Yeah. And then I you know, as as is often the case. I also look at this through like a

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the lens of an intellectual interest of a forum right there wasn't out there much out there. When I started about how to inherit and assess teams. surprising right. There's lots of building teams, but they mostly assumed it was an attack team.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): mostly about the dynamics as opposed to evolving the roles and structure of the team. So that was kind of work that I

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that I sort of pioneered right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So I just I guess that's just a couple of preferences right to to to think about it. And then we touched a little bit on how you assess the team, you know, but

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and I gave you the example of asking everyone the same questions.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): But even before you do that, there's some things you want to be thinking about one of which we've already mentioned. Right? Which is what's the star situation we're in because i'm going to build the team differently. If I'm in turnaround

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that I am, if i'm in startup or an accelerated growth for real life. Right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So your team building approach is really shaped.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): not completely, but in a substantial measure by

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the nature of the situation we're in. Yeah. yeah, you're in turnaround, you. You may be replacing a lot of people early.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You're in sustaining success. You're probably gonna, you know. Continue with virtually all the team as it is at least initially, you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So that's point. 1.2 is how much team work is really necessary.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know it's kind of almost like a you know, Motherhood and apple pie that that she'll build a team right. but in some circumstances it's not really what's required. Right? You're leading people working fairly independently.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You're better off managing them one on one right. There may be some things you do collectively for the sake of morale, and maybe some tasks you want to take on.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and other teams they need to be deeply integrated to do it right. And so don't don't kind of assume there's gonna be one approach to to building your team. or even one. You know, kind of level that which teamwork needs to happen, because it doesn't right.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And then I I guess I and then third, before you get into the assessment process, what are you looking for in people

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and and partially? That can be things like, you know, trust and reliability, which is a general thing

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Michael Watkins (he/him): in part. It can be a specific set of expertise that you need in a in a role, right? Either finance person may be really good at some dimensions of finance or many dimensions of finance. But part of your strategy is to, you know. Go on up

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Michael Watkins (he/him): acquisitions free, and you need someone in the finance role who's experience with the finance related to mergers and acquisitions, making the subject right. But I think the point is getting clarity in your own head about what you're looking for

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Michael Watkins (he/him): right? So if you do those 3 things right, you identify the scenario and your end stores model. You think about how much team work do I really need to drive here?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And you're clear about what you're looking for.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): That's a hugely valuable foundation for them beginning to dive into that

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Michael Watkins (he/him): that work of assessment.

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Jason Wick: That's great. Thank you for recapping all that and and for all the the great suggestions. And and again for for all the listeners, the

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Jason Wick: just a few topics we've hit here, and I I really do mean it, Michael. This book is just so packed with helpful information. And again thank you for writing it, and and i'm it's obvious you've already impacted so many folks with it, and will continue to impact

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Jason Wick: more folks with it. So thank you.

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Jason Wick: Last question is the same question I ask every single guest at the end. It can be related to your work, or anything else. It doesn't matter to me, what is something that you have learned recently.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Prompt engineering on Chat Gbt.

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Jason Wick: Okay.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So

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Michael Watkins (he/him): yeah. So so you know, I I actually come out of a technology background. So I was an electrical engineer and a control systems designer. Early in my career I did some work with early knowledge management systems, and I've stayed interested, right?

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Michael Watkins (he/him): I've also got an older older son who is really into. you know. AI.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): And so he, a week after chat.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): sent me a note and said, You gotta see this right. You got to look at this. And so I went on and got an account, and and my mind was blown very quickly, right? Because I do things like I did things like, okay, Tell me.

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Jason Wick: do you know who Michael Watkins is? You know the the

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Michael Watkins (he/him): the the of the first, many days. Yes, I'm aware of Michael Watkins. Right? So tell me about the writing style of Michael Watkins. Right? 3 paragraphs on my writing style.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Okay, like me, 3 paragraphs on the following topic in the style of Michael Onekins

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Cool right

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and and and I've been. I've been working with it since I use Chat Gbt every single day today. I used it today to

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Michael Watkins (he/him): analyze some interview data

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Michael Watkins (he/him): from a large Korean company that i'm going to be doing some leadership development work with, and they sent me 75 pages of interview notes.

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Jason Wick: Oh, wow!

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Michael Watkins (he/him): You know, and I took that and checked by Chunk. I put it into the chat, Gbt and said, Tell me what the dreams are on this right, and it gave me some really good answers, you know.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): So so that's something I've learned from recently, and I would say to everybody, I I do say to everybody. you know this is the coming wave, and it's a very large weight, and you're either going to be on top of that wave or you're going to be

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Michael Watkins (he/him): underneath, and then you do not want to be underneath it. So in my own organization, and imd i'm pushing folks very hard to, you know. Get out in front of the AI

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Revolution.

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Jason Wick: Great thanks for sharing that. And and and, as you said, when you're engineering the prompt for for the for chat, she

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Jason Wick: for chat, I always have a hard time saying it for Chat gpt the type of question you are asking. It's everything, I think. One thing I've been seeing on Linkedin as a theme of these little helpful infographics is essentially, you know, it's not Google. Search right? There's a lot more power there, and you've exhibited that with the kind of the line of questioning you went through progressively.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): and there's an entirely new occupation called Prompt Engineer.

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the right props to ask the systems to get the right. The right information there which is fascinating.

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Jason Wick: You have it Well.

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Jason Wick: Michael Watkins, of Genesis advisors, author of the First 90 Days Professor, and just a nice guy to talk to you as well. Thank you so much for being generous with your time. I really appreciate having the conversation with you today, and

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Jason Wick: and have a great rest of your day.

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Michael Watkins (he/him): Thank you, Jason. Great to talk with you.