S3E1: Lead With Poise With Terrance Lee

Terrance Lee, AKA The Introvert Leader had always avoided taking on leadership roles in his life.  At the age of 13, an experience occurred which caused him to doubt his ability to speak in front of people, and caused him to shy away from the spotlight.  This worked for Terrance until he eventually had to learn leadership skills by necessity at his first engineering job out of college.  

When he had been working in his first role for a short time, his mentor put in his two-week notice.  Terrance then found out that he had to take his place presenting to a group of experienced engineers and pilots for a highly technical review.  Despite feeling extremely nervous, the meeting that Terrance led went well; which gave him a giant confidence boost.  

Since then, Terrance has taken on many leadership and management roles as an introvert at several Fortune 500 companies in the defense industry, with proven results.  He utilizes his platform to empower introverts to tap into their own inner leadership potential and is never shy about sharing the tips that he has learned throughout his journey.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJv5nCKQBGk&t=7s
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheIntrovertLeader
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theintrovertleader/
X: https://twitter.com/TheIntrovertLe2
The Introvert Experience Podcast
The Introvert Leader Website
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Poise

•  Joe Montana in the Super Bowl
•  Poise enables high performance; it’s not weakness or lack of assertiveness

Speaking calmly

•  Be aware of emotional triggers
•  Tone in communication matters
•  Reduce the impact of outside influences on your presence
•  Listen to yourself, monitor yourself, record yourself

Have patience and slow down

•  Thinking inwardly versus thinking out loud
•  Don’t feel the pressure to say the first thing on your mind

Introvert leaders

•  Deep-thinking: strength in evaluation and on the front end
•  Empathy: remember the people, show appreciation

Enjoy deep conversations

•  Context does matter
•  Sometimes a quick decision is necessary

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Leadership Voyage
email: StartYourVoyage@gmail.com
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LeadershipVoyage
linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonallenwick/, https://www.linkedin.com/company/leadership-voyage-podcast/
music: by Napoleon (napbak)
https://www.fiverr.com/napbak
voice: by Ayanna Gallant
www.ayannagallantVO.com
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Transcript

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Jason Wick: Alright, everybody! We are here to start. Season 3 on leadership voyage, and I'm so happy to have everybody back again. In 2024. I am joined by Terrence Lee for the second time. Terrence. It's great to to see you again.

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Terrance Lee: Thanks. I appreciate you having me on. Sorry to be here.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, thank you.

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Jason Wick: And Terrence, you've got a book coming up. This podcast. Will probably air sometime around. March 20, fifth, 20, sixth somewhere in there. You've got a book that you're working on coming up. When is that book gonna come out? Do you know yet.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah. So right now, the target for the book to come out is around mid-april.

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Jason Wick: Beautiful. So that'll work out perfectly just in time, and the book is going to be called

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Jason Wick: The Calm Effect 5 Keys for Introvers to succeed without stress and lead with poise. And this is a follow up to the book we discussed in 2022, which was called

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Jason Wick: Quiet Voice, fearless leader, and I love your angle. It's about introvert leaders. It's about doubling down on the strengths of introversion and and a lot of things in my mind that apply to others as well. It's not only for introverts, but I love the angle that you bring. It's a really unique voice. So thank you for bringing it.

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Jason Wick: But before we start to talk about the book and some of the concepts

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Jason Wick: you re-relely you, you you started up your podcast again this year.

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Jason Wick: and you were pretty transparent right off the bat about why, you took a break from it. And I'm looking at a list of things you mentioned in this episode, you said, in 2023, you were releasing an episode for the podcast you know, almost every week. You were also writing a book you were releasing social media content, speaking

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Jason Wick: family life, volunteering at church full time, career, right?

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Jason Wick: You said it felt like something had to give, and that you were not mastering anything.

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Jason Wick: What did you learn from what you went through in 2020

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Jason Wick: 3, when it came to all of these things you were trying to juggle.

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Terrance Lee: Great question. Great question. So, yeah, I mean, you got the list right. I mean that there was so many different things that I was trying to juggle at the time, and I think that what I learned was, you know, just like what you were kinda hitting on right in terms of not mastering anything. I think that sometimes in life

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Terrance Lee: we can be trying to put our eggs in so many different baskets and trying to do so many things that we don't really feel like we're getting ahead in any of them. And that's how I began to feel. And you know, ultimately, I think that that can lead to overwhelm right, it can lead to overwhelm it can lead to burnout. And

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Terrance Lee: you know, the podcast was doing well at the time, had definitely, you know, grown the listener base and was talking to fellow introverts and was awesome to do. But ultimately it just, you know, was the right thing at the time to make that decision to take a break, and it really was freeing in a lot of ways. But I also was able to refocus. And then, when I brought the podcast back recently, I really felt just more re-energized with it. Now, so yeah, I'm actually glad that I took a break for a while.

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Jason Wick: That's wonderful doing it your own way. I love that.

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Jason Wick: How common do you think it is out there for people to be going through this overwhelm or burnout in their work situations. If any sense of how that is for folks.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You ask that. I think a lot of people are going through it and just don't even realize it. Because they're so used to it that it's just like, Oh, this just becomes life, you know. I I'm speaking from personal experience. I know that's what it was for me.

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Terrance Lee: You know the industry I work in is very fast paced. It's constantly changing, and when you throw in a family life on top of that. And business and extracurricular activities. And all these different things.

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Terrance Lee: Sometimes we just get used to that pace of life. And we think that that's just what it's supposed to be. And when you begin to look up and you realize that, you know you're feeling overwhelmed. But you don't know why something feels off. You don't feel like you're as recharged, or your energy is where it should be like

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Terrance Lee: when you start feeling like that. Maybe it's because you're overwhelmed and and doing too many things, but I think so many of us. We just do it, and we keep doing it, and we don't question it right? So I think that it's important for all of us to really look at what we have on our plate and assess if it's really good for us.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, I love that. But thank you for bringing it up. There's a self awareness and a and a reflection components for sure that I I'm hearing about from what you're describing, and and I I couldn't agree more. I I'm sure many of us.

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Jason Wick: you know, on autopilot. Sometimes autopilot sounds like a positive like, Oh, there! There's little effort involved. But but in the in the case of you're doing so many things, and they're all an autopilot. Yeah, I think you're bringing up a great point.

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Jason Wick: Well, let's talk a little bit about the calm effect. Okay? And and some of the concepts in there. And I've only read the first chapter because that's the one on your site. But but I'm trying to piece together some concepts, and I'd love to get into them and help people get excited for this book before it comes out in mid-april.

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Jason Wick: and what I'd like to do is have this conversation kind of in 2 sections. The first is really touching on that word poise, that is in the title of your book, and then also later on, maybe get really specific around introverts and introversion. Because, you know, it's there's definitely extraversion bias out there, particularly in leadership. Right?

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Jason Wick: So let's talk about calm. Let's talk about poise. Sorry

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Jason Wick: you talk about a little anecdote in your book, and I love the sports anecdotes in your in your books.

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Jason Wick: You talk about. I think it was 1989, and

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Jason Wick: Joe Montana, the Hall of Fame quarterback from the 49 ers in the Super Bowl.

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Jason Wick: Could you tell us a little bit about that story, and how it relates to poise.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So you know it. It's funny, because when I was a kid, we lived in Northern California at the time of that super bowl. So I was a big 40 niners fan. My dad was as well.

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Terrance Lee: I didn't know about this story until I researched this, you know. So back. Then I was just watching a game. But now, as an adult, when I read that, I was like, Wow, that's that's pretty cool. So essentially, what happened the 40 Niners were playing the Cincinnati Bengals and the Super Bowl.

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Terrance Lee: and at the time they were down by 3 points, I think the Bengals had just scored. And so Joe, Montana and the 49 ers had to drive the entire field over 90 yards to try to tire win the game.

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Terrance Lee: so you can imagine the amount of pressure millions of eyes on you between the people in the stadium and the people watching at home, and just all of that pressure.

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Terrance Lee: And in those moments what most people would do is they would fill that pressure, and they would tense up, and they would have a certain very serious kind of demeanor or attitude about things.

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Terrance Lee: And what Joe did was, he looked in the crowd, and he saw at the time legendary actor, John Candy

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Terrance Lee: eating some popcorn.

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Terrance Lee: and he made a comment to one of his offensive linemen. And he's like, Hey, isn't that John Candy over there?

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Terrance Lee: And you know, the offensive, Lyman kinda chuckled, is like, Yeah, that's him. Which seems like a really weird thing to do in one of the biggest moments of your life right? But what's interesting? And I watched an interview

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Terrance Lee: that was online with Harris. But Harris Burton, the offensive lineman, and he was talking about it, and he talked about how it helped to loosen him up.

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Terrance Lee: He talked about how the rest of the huddle after Joe did that. Everyone was a lot looser and a lot more calm. And all of a sudden the over 90 yards that they had to go.

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Terrance Lee: They were just looser. They didn't have the level of seriousness, and all of that that was there before, and and the nerves were a lot more calm, and they were able to drive the field, and they ended up scoring, and they won the super bowl. So I just thought it was a really good example

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Terrance Lee: of boys in leadership, because in the workplace and in business

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Terrance Lee: there are similar situations, right?

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Terrance Lee: There are deadlines that are tight. There are things that go wrong, and you have to fix it. There are conflicts that happen with coworkers and as a leader. How are you gonna deal with that? There are so many scenarios, and oftentimes we don't approach them with poise. And so I wanted to get into that with the first chapter of the book is, just, how do we develop poise? And how do we carry that out as leaders? So that's why I use that as an example.

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Jason Wick: Thanks for the explanation, Terrence, and

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Jason Wick: for those who are sports fans out there, and who are old enough to remember that 1989 super bowl you were. You were probably single digits, right? And I I was like 10 or 11 or something, and and I still remember that actually, now I don't know. This didn't know as you suggest. I didn't know the story about, hey? Isn't that John Candy, you know, which is fantastic way to introduce levity. But what we saw was the result right? And and even if you don't pay attention

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Jason Wick: to sports, you know you knew who Joe Montana was right. You kinda know his, his nickname of Joe Cool and the Legendary poise as you're suggesting, and I love it, cause you're you're telling this through a story, and we remember stories which which is wonderful. So let's take that into that topic a little bit of of having poise, and if I hear you correctly, but I don't. I don't wanna jump to a huge conclusion.

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Jason Wick: But are you suggesting, perhaps, that

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Jason Wick: if we have poise we are able to perform

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Jason Wick: at at close to our best.

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Terrance Lee: Absolutely.

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Terrance Lee: absolutely. And

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Terrance Lee: I want to be very clear that

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Terrance Lee: some people, when they hear the word calm, or they hear the word poise, they might link that with someone that is weak or they're soft, or they're being not assertive or something like that.

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Terrance Lee: And that's absolutely the opposite of of what I'm suggesting. You can have poise, but you also can still assert yourself in the way that you do it. It's just you're doing it differently.

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Terrance Lee: A lot of people when they think about leadership, they're thinking about the louder voice in the room, or the person that has a more extroverted personality. And a lot of these biases get thrown in the workplace where poise is really just thinking logically.

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Terrance Lee: thinking logically, coming from a space where your nerves are calm when you're making decisions, when you're speaking to your team, when you're listening, it's just an overall attitude and a way that you approach things. So I think that absolutely. When someone has poised, they're able to make better decisions, and they're able to lead better.

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Jason Wick: Wonderful. Let's talk about the concept of practicing to practice. Speaking calmly.

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Jason Wick: you talk about in the first chapter. I think it is

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Jason Wick: asking the reader to evaluate what happens when they're agitated?

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Jason Wick: Why do you ask that question, or encourage folks to ask themselves that question?

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Terrance Lee: Absolutely great question. I'm glad you asked about that. So a lot of people in

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Terrance Lee: I will say for myself as well. I had to do the same thing

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Terrance Lee: when we're in scenarios where we're frustrated.

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Terrance Lee: or we're in situations at work and business, even our personal lives, right? And we're having these conversations. I've had to do this when I'm speaking to my wife.

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Terrance Lee: You'll be having certain conversations, and somebody may say something that triggers an emotion in you.

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Terrance Lee: and then your response

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Terrance Lee: can come off a certain way because you're responding to the way that that person spoke to you. Right and a lot of us. We respond in these ways, and we never even think to take the time

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Terrance Lee: to think. Hey! How do I sound right now to that person?

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Terrance Lee: How am I coming off in the way that I'm talking in the way that I'm communicating? I had to do this exercise myself, and so I really wanted to encourage the reader.

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Terrance Lee: One of the things about poison calmness is not allowing outside influences to affect our energy in the way we communicate right. So I want to be able to have my poise and my calmness and my speech.

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Terrance Lee: regardless of what someone else is doing, because one of the other examples I give in the book is former President Barack Obama, when he was giving a speech at the State of the Union, and a Senator yelled out to him.

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Terrance Lee: And basically the way that that could have changed his entire energy. You know, he could have yelled back, and it could have been this whole, you know, shouting, mash back and forth

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Terrance Lee: where really, what we need to do is regardless of how we're being spoken to, or what the terms of that is, we keep our level of poise, we keep our speech and we approach it that way. So it's not to mean that we're being a pushover or we're being soft. It's absolutely it's not that at all. We're actually able to keep our control and just remain our poise, regardless of how someone's talking.

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Jason Wick: How can someone improve their self awareness around something like this? If they maybe have identified that they might think that they're being triggered emotionally by by someone in the in, professionally or personally, you know, what's the tactic that somebody could

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Jason Wick: could try out.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So, listening to yourself and and monitoring yourself. It sounds a little weird but I've actually done this where I'll have a difficult meeting coming up, and I'll record the meeting

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Terrance Lee: because I want to hear

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Terrance Lee: how my tone sounded.

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Terrance Lee: I want to hear how that other person's tone sounded. And I want to just listen to the conversation because so much of it is tone.

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Terrance Lee: A lot of people think it's the words, but a lot of it is the way that we're saying things. And so, you know, one tactic is to listen to yourself, and that may be recording a conversation on your phone or recording it. If you're in a virtual meeting where you can go back and you can listen to, hey? When this person said this thing that I didn't like.

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Terrance Lee: How did I respond to that?

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Terrance Lee: And then at that point you can begin to see certain things, and if it's not a response that you liked. Well, now you can course correct, and maybe do something different in the future. But it's hard to do that if you don't really hear the way that you're sounding cause. Sometimes when you hear it, it's surprising it's like, Oh, wow! I sounded like I was pretty. I was pretty upset, but in the moment you may not have thought you sounded that way, cause you're just talking right?

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Terrance Lee: So that's one tactic is to listen to yourself back, and see how you sound.

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Jason Wick: That's a great suggestion. Thanks for sharing that for anybody who, you know, and I mean, any of us is going to have a challenge with this at some point in time, one way or the other. But if if you know, you're out there listening, and

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Jason Wick: you think, Oh, boy, I wonder why people react to me when I speak at sometimes, or or something like this. There, there's an improvement in the self awareness. That could come from this kind of rigor around what you're suggesting. I think, Terrence, I I don't remember if we talked about this last time. I know that you grew up singing in in choir and whatnot. But I I have a music degree, a a performance music degree. And actually.

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Jason Wick: yeah, one of the things you you're always doing as a musician, as you're develop developing that craft is you record yourself because oftentimes you're sitting there playing, I mean for me, I was an instrumentalist, but you play the instrument, you hear it from where you are, and you think it was sounded great. And when you go, listen to the recording.

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Jason Wick: It's it's not exactly what you thought it was. So I can definitely identify with that.

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Jason Wick: you also talk about

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Jason Wick: having. And it might be related, but having patience.

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Jason Wick: slowing down.

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Jason Wick: particularly in high pressure environments in which, you know, there's a lot of fast paced things going on in the world today on every level, a lot of high pressure environments and expectations for those of us that work, especially if we're leading others formally or informally.

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Jason Wick: You talk about thinking inwardly and thinking out loud, and that might touch a little bit on Introversion versus extraversion.

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Jason Wick: Can you tell us a little bit about how that relates to having patience and slowing things down a little bit.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. Oftentimes the introvert will have an approach where they're going to think more before speaking.

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Terrance Lee: And oftentimes someone that's more extroverted is gonna talk to think.

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Terrance Lee: And this isn't in every case one thing that I have been saying a lot more especially the more research I've been doing is, a lot of people are just somewhere on the scale.

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Terrance Lee: So you have extra version, and you have introversion, and some people are a little bit in the middle.

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Terrance Lee: So these are just kind of in general, what an introvert typically would do. And in general, what an extrovert would do but often with the introvert thinking before speaking becomes

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Terrance Lee: a very advantageous thing to do, because sometimes, when you just say the first thing that's on your mind without really thinking through it

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Terrance Lee: without thinking through how it may affect someone else without thinking through the pros and cons of the idea.

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Terrance Lee: You're just kind of putting things out there, right? And sometimes that works. But a lot of times when we have our patients.

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Terrance Lee: we're thinking of something. And we're thinking of, how's this gonna impact the room.

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Terrance Lee: How are people going to take this? What are the pros of this decision? What are the cons of it?

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Terrance Lee: You know what I'm about to say, How will that impact this conversation?

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Terrance Lee: And when we take a few seconds, and we think before we speak and we, we're patient and do that it can really help from a leadership perspective. I mean, this is something that I've

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Terrance Lee: started to enact myself here over the past few years, and I've seen a huge difference when I just take a few seconds, because sometimes I'll have a thought to say something, and instead of saying it, I'll wait, and I'll hear a few other things in the conversation, and then I'm like, Oh, I'm glad I didn't say that it's crazy how that happens. And then, now that I've heard some more information. I'm able to make a more informed.

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Terrance Lee: You know I can say something that's more informed, right? So that makes a big difference, I think, just slowing down, not filling the pressure to have to say the first thing on our mind, but being able to think through it, and then we express it, and oftentimes the thought comes out a lot better.

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Jason Wick: I like that. There are a lot of different angles to what you're bringing up. There's the kind of prototypical Introversion versus extraversion piece where we're processing what's going on in our heads? There's the

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Jason Wick: the idea that by actually taking that time to think there's an advantage to what happens in front of us, and we might get more information. I love it because it doesn't matter who we are, I think, right now, listening, it can help us. This idea I read something, maybe 6, 7 years ago, which was this idea of? As if you're a leader, particularly counting to one which I found like what count to one. And it was like, just by the fact that you counted

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Jason Wick: and took that pause. You created an opportunity for someone else to get in there. It wasn't like Oh, my gosh! I have to get in there and speak first right? And and the higher you are in the org chart, or the more influence you have over people around you.

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Jason Wick: the more those words do matter and impact other people. So there sounds like there's very little to lose in waiting a couple of seconds.

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Jason Wick: What I what I love here is.

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Jason Wick: I think this can relate to the influence that a leader has on the people around them, or but on their team. Because you talk about 2 leaders

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Jason Wick: in your first chapter of your book. One of them is is named Bob.

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Jason Wick: and Bob's team

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Jason Wick: feels like they might get fired.

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Jason Wick: Tell us, tell us a little bit about that.

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Terrance Lee: So this. So this story

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Terrance Lee: and this example is based on real people.

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Terrance Lee: This is based on a real experience from a past company I was at, and of course I didn't use real names in this case, but I lived it. I was on this team, and there was one program manager

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Terrance Lee: who was literally the type where, when he walked in the room for a meeting, you just didn't know how it was going to go.

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Terrance Lee: You just didn't know if he was gonna be in a good mood that day, or if he was, gonna tell everybody they were terrible. Then to get out of the office. I mean he. He was a very polarizing person, so

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Terrance Lee: his leadership style was not

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Terrance Lee: inspiring.

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Terrance Lee: We had very tight deadlines, a customer that needed our product, you know, yesterday, I mean, we were already behind schedule on things. And so there was a lot going on.

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Terrance Lee: And I feel like we as a team, would have worked a lot. We already were working hard.

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Terrance Lee: but we would have worked even harder for him if he had been different, like. I think there are some people where there was just no motivation there, I mean, he kind of sucked the motivation out of the team. But long story short, you know, with him.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, you know. Yeah, there were some engineers that he, you know, tried to get off the team. There were some people he would just directly call out in meetings in front of everyone just a very like kind of not a positive attitude. So that was leader number one. Now leader number 2.

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Terrance Lee: Very similar circumstances, very similar pressures and customer schedule, and all of those things. But his approach was just very different. We would have a difficult meeting where everyone was just dreading this meeting, and he would show up with donuts right? Or you know, he'd show up with Tacos or something, and.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Terrance Lee: That seems really small, right? That doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. But he would just start off the meeting. Hey, guys come, you know. Come, get a donut. Hey? How was your week this week? Right?

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Terrance Lee: Things like that. When people would express ideas, he would actually listen to the ideas, and he wouldn't cut them off. He would let them talk. He let them get their thoughts out, which was completely opposite to the other leader.

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Terrance Lee: The other leader was very quick to cut people off. If someone said something he would kind of

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Terrance Lee: berate that person or make it sound like it was just a terrible idea. It just just not a very good environment. So the second leader, I wanted to contrast those 2,

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Terrance Lee: because I think this happens a lot in the workplace where you'll have someone that's working in a toxic environment.

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Terrance Lee: And they get in in a positive environment. And that person completely changes. I mean, their performance is better. They're inspired, like the leader that someone works for makes all the difference in the world. So I just really wanted to contrast that, and show that from a real life example.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, thanks for getting into all the detail. And I I I'm I'd suspect most folks out there can identify with the 2 versions that you. You call out there to some degree or another right? And it does come to to that level of safety. And it comes to, you know, wanting to put in that extra extra effort

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Jason Wick: for for your leader. And there's something to that. And I think I like this story, too, because it it still goes back to the Joe Montana story right? I'm sure there's a very strong rapport in that huddle with those 11 guys, and then they already have that dynamic. And then in the high pressure moment which you're just talking about high pressure moments on Team A or leader, a versus leader. B.

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Jason Wick: This is the time when all of that stuff is supposed to pay off. Yeah, right? So I love that

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Jason Wick: We we've talked a little bit here about kind of. Oh, by the way, it sounds like Bob could could take some of your advice, I would say. We already talked about right speaking calmly, slowing down. So I think everybody can can identify with that. So thanks for sharing it.

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Jason Wick: We've we've touched on introverts here a little bit. That is your angle. Right? I mean, I don't. Wanna S, you know, trivialize and summarize you right. But your angle is the introvert leader, and

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Jason Wick: we've talked a little bit about prototypical introvert extrovert. But you do talk about some traits of introvert leaders.

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Jason Wick: and I'm gonna list 5 of them that you've you've written down and I'd love for you to tell us why any one of these, or a couple of these, you think, are such important assets in leadership for an introvert. So here are the 5 things I've written down, deep listening skills.

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Jason Wick: thoughtful decision-making.

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Jason Wick: introspection.

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Jason Wick: creativity

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Jason Wick: and empathy.

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Jason Wick: Any of those stand out to you that you want to talk a little bit more about why they're so valuable.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll I'll pick specifically on to. So I think the the deep thinking is one that is very key. And you know, here's the reality, I mean. Introverts can think deeply. Extroverts can think deeply as well. So it's not me suggesting that extroverts can't think deeply.

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Terrance Lee: but oftentimes kinda going back to what we mentioned before, the Introvert is going to think more before speaking or having certain discussions, conversations. And I think there's a lot of strength in that, because

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Terrance Lee: a lot of the ideas that get presented

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Terrance Lee: in meetings and in discussions, they're the type of discussions where, you know. For example, one meeting that we had here a few weeks ago. This particular meeting

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Terrance Lee: is going to completely make or break our project project for the next 2 years. So you know, there's certain decisions that get made on the front end of projects where it takes very deep thought. It takes thinking about, hey? What's everything that could go wrong? What's everything that could go right if we go down this direction? What are the risks? What are the opportunities to do better. There are a lot of angles and things that need to be thought about. So

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Terrance Lee: someone that's able to really think deeply through all of those things, and then really help to rally the team around that conversation and around those things like having those skills together are very key. So for introverts that are able to do that. There's a distinct advantage. And then I think one of the other ones I want to key on is empathy

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Terrance Lee: being able to be empathetic with people. It's interesting in these fast paced work environments. I feel like sometimes we're so focused on the work, right? We're so fo focused on the tasks that we forget the people. You know. We forget the people that have feelings, the people that are going through different things. The way that we talk to people the way that we have conversations.

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Terrance Lee: the fact that somebody might have completely, just been over backwards for our team. And if we don't just simply tell them thank you. They may not feel appreciated, and they might leave.

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Terrance Lee: I've seen that, you know. I was in functional management for a number of years, and one of the main reasons why people would leave different groups was not feeling appreciated. Most people think it's the pay right. Most people think it's money, and sometimes it is. But oftentimes it's someone not feeling heard, someone not feeling seen.

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Terrance Lee: So I think, for introverts that are able to really connect with people and be empathetic, and something as simple as knowing that you need to tell a person. Thank you.

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Terrance Lee: or knowing that somebody's going through a difficult day right now. So maybe today's not the day to have that tough discussion.

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Terrance Lee: Maybe I need to have this discussion another day, because right now it's just kind of not the time like there are a lot of different things that play into that. So those are 2 specific things I'd say that are stressful introverts that can definitely be used.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, thank you. Thoughtful decision making

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Jason Wick: empathy. Really 2 great things to key in on there. So thanks for deep diving into those a little bit, Terrence.

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Jason Wick: speaking of

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Jason Wick: thoughtful decision, making taking time, you referenced earlier. You know, Leader B. That the positive version of the leader, not Bob. How how they listen. They listened. For example, you mentioned that introverts, you know, quite often will enjoy deep, deep conversation

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Jason Wick: from a leadership point of view. How do you think

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Jason Wick: that's a benefit or or a detriment actually, that that they thrive, generally speaking, in with deep conversation.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's deep conversation. And then there's you know what we would call as introverts, small talk that that can happen. I think that deep conversation is needed at times. Now, I will say this on the flip side of that to answer both sides of the question. There are sometimes where you just have to kind of get to what the root of the problem is, and have a

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Terrance Lee: quick decision and move forward. Right? So deep conversation is

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Terrance Lee: good to be able to have, but it's also

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Terrance Lee: has to be balanced with. Sometimes when there's a shorter timeline and decision has to be made. You need to be able to just kind of have the quick conversation as well. Right? So, being able to balance both of those things, I think is very important. But ultimately

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Terrance Lee: people can tell. I think when you're really in tune and really listening to them.

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Terrance Lee: and when they can tell that you're able to have a deeper, more than just surface level conversation with them. And that's the kind of thing that builds trust. And I think that's where

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Terrance Lee: the introvert oftentimes is in a unique position, because if you can connect with somebody and get them to trust you, then you can be an effective leader, because now you have someone that's really gonna work with you and want to work with you. Right? But you know, again, on the flip side. I, although I love deep conversation, there are some times where I don't maybe have as much time to have as long of a conversation with someone on my team, as I may want

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Terrance Lee: or vice versa, like they may not have as much time, so sometimes we need to have our deep conversation, but maybe pull it into a few minutes. So you have to be able. Do that as well.

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Jason Wick: Deep. Conversation. Yeah.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, thanks for expanding on that a little bit, Terrence. Yeah, I mean, I can't believe we've already talked for a half an hour. But we're so we're gonna start wrapping it up. But you know, we're gonna be make sure everybody understands the book where they can reach you. All that stuff. We'll get to all that wrap up in just a second here. But I wanna make sure to ask you the same question that I ask everybody at the conclusion of our of our conversations on on the podcast and that is what is something that you've learned recently.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, yeah, love this question. So I recently learned that I think I am a Hsp, a highly sensitive person. I had no idea what that even was, and.

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Jason Wick: But I.

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Terrance Lee: I did, I, I kept hearing about it on social media and in different podcasts and things about this Hsp, kind of this buzzword. And it's essentially someone that they just. They're very sensitive to various things in their environment. And they feel a lot.

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Terrance Lee: And for a long time I've been the kind of person

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Terrance Lee: where

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Terrance Lee: I can, just

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Terrance Lee: since different things. And when I'm in different environments, if the energy is not that good, I feel it. If the energy is great, I feel that

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Terrance Lee: I've just been like that for a long time. So when I read the definition of what an Hsp. Was, I thought that was really interesting. And then I saw, based on some research that over 60% of introverts identify as Hsp, so I thought that was interesting. So that is my recent learning about myself was that. And I've been now doing a lot of research into highly sensitive people. And what that means, and and all of that. So yeah, it's been interesting.

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Jason Wick: Thanks for sharing that personal anecdote, Terrence. That's that's great. And and it's to kind of bring it back around. It's interesting for me to think about as well where we kind of started from around.

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Jason Wick: You know what happens when you're agitated. I don't. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I'm kind of going okay. Well, if you're highly sensitive to the environment and the conditions aren't conducive.

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Jason Wick: I might be agitated. And then I have to start talking about all the stuff we just talked about here to help me grow right.

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Terrance Lee: For unfair.

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Jason Wick: Okay.

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Terrance Lee: Absolutely. Yep.

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Jason Wick: Kind of full circle.

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Jason Wick: Well, wonderful. Thank you. So we've got Terrence Lee, the Introvert leader. I've had a great time talking to you again today. Let's see, to recap

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Jason Wick: your last book was quiet voice, fearless leader, really good book. I recommended to everybody.

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Jason Wick: Your book that's going to come out in mid-april

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Jason Wick: is the calm effect. 5 keys for introverts to succeed without stress and lead with poise, which we've talked about today quite a bit. Your podcast has been rebranded, I believe, as the introvert experience. So folks can go find that

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Jason Wick: if there's one place or multiple places, you'd like to direct folks to learn more about you, your ideas, your your services, offerings, etc. What! What would you like to direct them.

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Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm most active on social media on Instagram. At the Introvert leader. I also have a Youtube channel at the Introvert leader, and I'm sure it'll be in the show notes the link to download the first chapter of the com effect. I would love everyone to download that. And you know, as you just mentioned, it'll be coming out in April. So looking forward to hearing everyone's feedback on that.

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Jason Wick: Wonderful. And, Terrence, I just gotta add on. You carry yourself with such humility. I'm on your email list. I have been for a couple of years, I'll I'll reply to your email, and you'll reply back to me. So that's really cool, right like when when Terrence is saying right now to you all listening. I'd love for you to download the chapter or read the book and provide feedback. He's not just saying those words. He he means it and and engage it'll be great as far as Instagram. I gotta tell you. I

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Jason Wick: I just laugh, and I mean I don't know if that's the intention, but I absolutely love it because

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Jason Wick: your angle on Instagram it's perfect for the the nighttime scroller with their sound off. Right. Talk about embracing introvert. You have like a written sentence in the frame, and you sit there with a cool look on your face, and you point to it, and you like hardly say a word right? It's just brilliant. So follow the Introvert leader. You said right.

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Terrance Lee: Does it?

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Jason Wick: Introvert leader on Instagram, Youtube. Definitely take a minute and and find Terrence everybody.

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Jason Wick: So Terrence again. Great to talk to you for the second time. My pleasure, and have a great rest of your day.

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Terrance Lee: Appreciate it you, too. This has been awesome.

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Jason Wick: Thank you.