S3E4: What is Leadership? with Robert Hargrove

Robert Hargrove is the Founder of Masterful Coaching, Co-Director of the Harvard Leadership Research Project, and author of many landmark books. Find out more here.

Robert Hargrove and his team have decades of experience, have impacted 1000s of leaders and produced undeniable results.

Clients include CEOs and team members in Exxon Mobile, Nike, Fidelity Investments, Phillips, AbbVie, and many Silicon Valley-type firms, as well as owner-operator businesses.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberthargrove1/
Call 617.953.5252 for Free Coaching Tuesdays

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Leadership is about love and caring

• Great leaders radiate empathy
• Which leads to a sense of responsibility 
• Ennobling ideals and enduring values mean more than what many businesses stand for
• We should benchmark leaders based on how many lives they’ve changed, not dollars they’ve made
• Let’s stand for something bigger than success
• We need role models who stand the test of time
• A leader’s job is to make something happen that wasn’t supposed to happen

Writing books

• Painful process
• Takes much longer than you ever thought it would
• Life is more than “making the doughnuts”
• Every day is an act of creation
• It’s something that can have an impact
• “Masterful Coaching” was written in 1995

Guiding principles for a leader

• Find your hero
• Take a stand for something greater than yourself
• Lead with the power of your words
• The power of teams is greater than individuals
• Results now
• Coach rather than cop
• Growth through adversity

Growth through adversity

• Leaders grow through crucible experiences
• Great adversity can lead to transformation
• Harry Truman called his troops back after they ran away
• Character is destiny - Truman studied leaders and battles

Masterful Coaching

• Become the leader your business needs by realizing the impossible future
• Be daring to create a legendary company
• Did you make a difference?
• Great leaders have integrity, empathy, responsibility, drive, humility and self-reflectiveness

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Leadership Voyage
email: StartYourVoyage@gmail.com
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LeadershipVoyage
linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonallenwick/, https://www.linkedin.com/company/leadership-voyage-podcast/
music: by Napoleon (napbak)
https://www.fiverr.com/napbak
voice: by Ayanna Gallant
www.ayannagallantVO.com
==========

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Transcript

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Jason Wick: Alright, e everybody welcome back to another episode of leadership voyage. I'm lucky enough to be here with which I've already learned the entertaining Robert Hargrove. It's nice to meet you today, Robert.

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Robert Hargrove: Hi! Nice to meet you as well.

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Jason Wick: Thank you.

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Jason Wick: Robert.

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Robert Hargrove: We have a very warm

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Robert Hargrove: personality work.

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Jason Wick: Appreciate that. Thank you.

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Robert Hargrove: I say that

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Robert Hargrove: the face never lies, so you can tell a lot about what people's who people are by their face

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Robert Hargrove: and by what and by what they say. There was a famous American writer, Ralph Waldo Emerson. You probably heard about him, he said. Everything you say reveals you. So whatever you say, it's revealing a lot about your vision, your values, your your personal and cultural history. So

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Robert Hargrove: I'm ready to go.

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Jason Wick: That's good. I know we're gonna have fun. I already feel it. And that's a pretty interesting comment from Emerson.

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Jason Wick: Have you had a

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Jason Wick: an anonymous experience we would share about somebody recently where you you learned something about their face, and it it didn't go well.

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Robert Hargrove: No, but I did have an interesting experience in the grocery store yesterday.

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Jason Wick: Okay, tell us.

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Robert Hargrove: Well, there was a there was a woman standing right in front of me at the market basket grocery store, a very famous grocery store in the

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Robert Hargrove: in the Boston area.

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Robert Hargrove: and she was in the 12 person, the 12 item checkout line.

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Robert Hargrove: and she was looking at me and smiling, and she had a very guilty expression

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Robert Hargrove: on her face.

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Robert Hargrove: and I but she had a nice face, kind of like you, warm and smiling, and and

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Robert Hargrove: I said, what do you feel so guilty about? And she and she said, well, as you know, I have more than 12 items. You know there are certain people that would feel guilty about having more than 12 items. I would probably just try to sneak it in. I said, Oh, okay, that's right. You don't need to feel guilty about that with me.

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Jason Wick: That's funny.

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Robert Hargrove: She said, well, I do. I said, well, I want you to know something. You have some really great qualities.

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Robert Hargrove: she said. I do.

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Robert Hargrove: You made my day.

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Robert Hargrove: And then we sat there, another not sat there, stood there another 1530 s. He said, well, what are my great qualities?

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Robert Hargrove: And as I was telling you and preparing for the for the podcast

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Robert Hargrove: I'm I've spent a career studying people's faces, whether it's on the the London

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Robert Hargrove: Tube, the New York subway, the the airport restaurants, golf courses. And so I said, Okay, number one, you've got good character.

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Robert Hargrove: I said, number 2, you've got good humor. Number 3. You're pretty smart and 2, you haven't. Lot 3, 4. You haven't lost your humility, and on top of that you're a good worker, and someone that would be that, not a prisoner of pettiness. I said. She said, wow! You really made my day. Actually, she said. I made her day just when I said she had good qualities, but I think probably if you went and studied that

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Robert Hargrove: well, if you went and met that woman and went out to dinner with her or got to know her. Probably most of the things I observed would be true.

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Robert Hargrove: It doesn't always apply.

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Robert Hargrove: But yeah, in many cases.

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Jason Wick: I think it's really admirable, and something that we could model, though the way that you were just so

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Jason Wick: direct with someone in a positive way, and and we can help someone else kind of

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Jason Wick: realize something positive about themselves in the example that you just shared. I don't know that a lot of us take the time

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Jason Wick: to do that with a stranger. I think that's really cool. So thanks for sharing.

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Robert Hargrove: That the you know your podcast is about leadership.

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Robert Hargrove: And I think what real leadership really comes down to at the end of the day, and this is not to sound sentimental is love.

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Robert Hargrove: A leader has to

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Robert Hargrove: care about people they have to empathize with people.

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Robert Hargrove: They have to. It has to be in your blood. The same with a coach to wanna help people, and you're making me think of a great quotation from Mother Teresa. She was walking through a neighborhood in India, and someone asked her why she was there. She said, I'm here because people are starving. And she said, what are they starving for? They're starved for love.

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Robert Hargrove: So when I was with that woman yesterday, that's what I did wherever I go. I'm much more authentic, I think when I'm out in the world, in, in, in the supermarket line, or the home depot, or an airport than I am pontificating

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Robert Hargrove: Internet Linkedin or social media folks. I I can be myself.

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Jason Wick: That's fair.

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Robert Hargrove: I love people, I I I love people, and I I look at I don't. I kind of look at like

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Robert Hargrove: The lot of times where I don't have to say something. I notice something about someone advice. I don't. It's not even appropriate for me to say something.

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Robert Hargrove: but I say something, because I know what I have to say to that person in this situation like this, one

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Robert Hargrove: could make a difference in that person's life. So well may seem inappropriate, or

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Robert Hargrove: or a little bit unusual or weird. I I say it. Anyway, my son, my son goes like this to me, or gives me a.

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Jason Wick: Cut it out, Dad!

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Robert Hargrove: He's always doing that. I'm always getting a kit.

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Jason Wick: Right. I I love it, though the the leadership is love side of things, and it does resonate with me. And love is something that we basically have in almost unlimited supply. If you want to think of it that way, right? It's a choice to show how we wanna express that. So I like it.

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Robert Hargrove: You know, if all great leaders were, if if they may not all been

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Robert Hargrove: giving people a hug, and and telling them how much they love them, but they radiate empathy and empathy leads to to sense of responsibility for other people and doing once doing something to help.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: well, I love the opening we're having, although I will want to go, wrote back real quick, because people don't even know who you are yet. Robert. Robert is the founder and CEO of masterful coaching, and we'll get into a little bit of that. But also the co-director of the Harvard Leadership Research Project for the last. What's it been like? 100 or 200 years now that you've been been the co-leader of the Harvard Research.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: Project.

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Robert Hargrove: I use that? Yeah, people are impressed with that. But I have been been in that role for quite a long time founder of the Harvard Leadership Project, and

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Robert Hargrove: so, and the author of Masterful Coaching and founder of a company called Masterbook. I've had quite a long and storied career. A lot of people tell me when I do these podcasts, I think it's because they think I look old. They say, you know, you've been around for a while I said, What the hell does he mean by that? So I've had so much experience. When I started out my career I was trying to pretend that I had more experience

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Robert Hargrove: that I had. Now I'm trying to pretend that I have less.

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Jason Wick: Have less experience.

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Jason Wick: Well, I'm not gonna focus on how much experience. But I wanna focus on one important experience here. I read about you that you were awarded the distinguished, the medal for distinguished public service for some type of work that you did at the Pentagon. I believe it's the highest award.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: Pavilion.

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Jason Wick: What does that mean to you to have received that.

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Robert Hargrove: Well.

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Robert Hargrove: I think

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Robert Hargrove: the bottom line is

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Robert Hargrove: that I'm I'm I'm I'm someone that

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Robert Hargrove: believes deeply in America's

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Robert Hargrove: ennobling ideals and enduring values.

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Robert Hargrove: I'm

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Robert Hargrove: though I'm a business person.

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Robert Hargrove: I think I'm from. I think I'm a person that's first and foremost an American who believes in in in what our country stands for.

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Robert Hargrove: and

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Robert Hargrove: just to share a little bit with you about my background.

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Robert Hargrove: I spent many years coaching Ceos and top teams of fortune, 100 companies fortune 500

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Robert Hargrove: and one day

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Robert Hargrove: I was at the Pentagon.

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Robert Hargrove: and

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Robert Hargrove: I lost my, and I went to a special briefing for the Secretary with the Secretary of Defense. This is during the Iraq War.

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Robert Hargrove: and I lost my computer bag at the end of the briefly, I couldn't find my computer bag. My son's the same way. He's always leaving something behind.

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Robert Hargrove: I'm I've I've replaced many ski masks and gloves and things like that. So one of the so the the room is full of 3 Star and 4 Star generals, and one of the 4 Star generals

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Robert Hargrove: spent a half an hour with me

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Robert Hargrove: looking from my computer back. And he eventually found it and.

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Jason Wick: Seriously.

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Robert Hargrove: As I was walking around the Pentagon, I noticed that all of these great generals and admirals and men and women in uniform.

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Robert Hargrove: they stood for something that I didn't see that people in the business world stood for.

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Robert Hargrove: They stood for a higher cause or higher higher value. They stood for our our enduring ideals, and there are nobly ideals and enduring value. They were patriotism a a lot of times what I found with people in business, although I I love business people.

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Robert Hargrove: is that they stand for sort of an abundance of self, interest, power, and money. But I saw these people stand for something greater than themselves. And when they gave me the award for what I did to basically, I tried to help the Pentagon run more like a business

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Robert Hargrove: in service of the men and women who put on the cloth of the nation.

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Robert Hargrove: They gave me this award for service. I went

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Robert Hargrove: above and beyond the call of duty. So it meant like I was one of them

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Robert Hargrove: as opposed to being, you know, someone else scratching around, you know, trying to make a buck.

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Robert Hargrove: I know I stood for something greater, and I felt I was recognized for that.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, that from what you're saying, it sounds like that was really important to you to be kind of put in this different category of believing in something greater. I'm I'm wondering if if businesspeople, more business people, were believing in something greater than their own self interest. On the whole, what

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Jason Wick: what would the result look like to us as.

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Robert Hargrove: The orders are.

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Jason Wick: Clients.

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Robert Hargrove: Yes, an interesting

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Robert Hargrove: phenomenon happening now

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Robert Hargrove: for many for

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Robert Hargrove: as long as I can remember well, probably past 1020 years.

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Robert Hargrove: we judge people's.

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Robert Hargrove: We put on a pedestal those people who are billionaires. Right? Yeah, we, we, the someone's

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Robert Hargrove: credibility as a leader is determined by how many billions of dollars they have, and I read this week that that

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Robert Hargrove: Steve Bomber, formerly of Microscop, who used to be

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Robert Hargrove: Bill Gates, executive assistant. He had a hundred 50 billion dollars, and poor old Bill Gates, he had a hundred 75 million or 190 million. And it it's somewhere in my mind. I said, Okay, well, he's pro. He's worth more as a leader. Bill Gates is worth more as a leader than this guy.

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Jason Wick: That's interesting.

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Robert Hargrove: And so I think we're really hung up on

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Robert Hargrove: evaluating leaders based on how many billions of dollars they have, or even what positions they hold.

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Robert Hargrove: But if you look at history.

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Robert Hargrove: I think I think we're we're, I think we're moving to a different place

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Robert Hargrove: that we will

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Robert Hargrove: benchmark leaders.

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Robert Hargrove: not by how many billions of dollars, but by how many millions of lives that change?

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Robert Hargrove: And you. So so you start to see people like

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Robert Hargrove: who have already made their billions, or their millions, or whatever it is. Michael Bloomberg, for example, Ray Dalio, the Billionaire Hedge fund manager. Yeah. Bill Ackman.

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Robert Hargrove: And and and quite a few others

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Robert Hargrove: that have moved on from wanting to be famous for for how much financial capital they could accumulate to wanting to be famous for doing something that actually makes a difference in the world.

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Robert Hargrove: I mean, ray Dallow spends a tremendous amount of time coaching and mentoring people. Bill Ackman was

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Robert Hargrove: is trying to start a

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Robert Hargrove: a

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Robert Hargrove: venture capital fund or investment capital fund for consumers that would not otherwise be able to invest.

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Robert Hargrove: Is designed to make the average person rich. I read the other day that he's he has a plan that everyone in America to be a millionaire by the time they're 30. If we only invested.

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Robert Hargrove: I I don't remember the amount. But if we, if we invested something like 25 billion dollars a year. Every person in America could be a billionaire by the time they were 30. So and they're using social media as a way to.

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Robert Hargrove: they use leaders, and Ceos and managers used to use their organization as a way to have an impact. Not leaders are going beyond that, using the power of social media to have an influence way beyond

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Robert Hargrove: their organizational boundaries.

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Jason Wick: I like that. If I hear you right, it's it's the we should value the impact of one's work more than their net worth.

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Robert Hargrove: That's a very probably a better way of saying it. I I pretend to put everything in grandiose terms. Value the impact

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Robert Hargrove: of your work

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Robert Hargrove: versus the impact of your

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Robert Hargrove: of your income.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Robert Hargrove: And again, that's leadership.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah. You know the George Washington.

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Robert Hargrove: George Washington was poor most of his life

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Robert Hargrove: when you got finished with. When he got finished with the Revolutionary War. He had, he? He owned, the Mount Vernon plantation.

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Robert Hargrove: but he was. He was. He didn't have a lot of money.

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Robert Hargrove: and the same with many other

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Robert Hargrove: great leaders.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, interesting.

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Jason Wick: I wanna change gears a little bit. I'm I'm really enjoying just how we're kinda going with the flow in this conversation. I'm really enjoying it in all seriousness. But something I wanted to ask you about, because you have this body of work in writing. As far as I can tell you've written at least a dozen books or so.

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Jason Wick: What do you learn from the process of writing a book.

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Robert Hargrove: Will

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Robert Hargrove: as the guy in the rocky Balboa movie, the

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Robert Hargrove: predicted. You learn pain. It's a very painful process. It's a process kind of like being a ballet dancer when you finally get on stage and perform the the ballet, everyone thinks it looks easy. Look you, you're brilliant. You're wonderful, but if they look at what you had to go through, it's a lot of pain.

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Robert Hargrove: and it takes it takes much longer than you ever thought it would.

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Robert Hargrove: But in another way.

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Robert Hargrove: For me life is

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Robert Hargrove: is not just getting up in the morning and going to work and making the donuts. There used to be a commercial in the boss here from place called Dunkin donuts. There was no like guy that woke up and said, gotta make the donuts gotta make the donut for me every day

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Robert Hargrove: is an active creation. So writing a book for me is an active creation.

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Robert Hargrove: But I had an interesting experience. I'd like to share with you.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, gently.

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Robert Hargrove: Week, just this week, which was very fulfilling. First of all.

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Robert Hargrove: I can put in writing. I can say something in writing.

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Robert Hargrove: I'm always searching for the perfect articulation

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Robert Hargrove: of what I want to say and writing, and I can say something in writing much better than I could actually ever say in person.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: I now, having said that, I I think I wrote because I wanted to do something that would have an impact that I wanted to have. I wanted to have a certain amount of power influence and have an impact. I wanted the fact that I live to matter. So I wrote this book masterful coaching.

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Robert Hargrove: and I can tell you more about that. But to to to get down to the bottom line.

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Robert Hargrove: This week someone I wrote that book in 1,995. This week I got a Linkedin message

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Robert Hargrove: from from someone who read my book and took a course on it

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Robert Hargrove: at Royal Roads University. On masterful coaching they use it as a textbook.

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Robert Hargrove: and he said, I want to acknowledge you. I want to acknowledge the man

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Robert Hargrove: that wrote the book

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Robert Hargrove: to change the world of consulting.

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Robert Hargrove: training, and coaching forever.

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Robert Hargrove: That was pretty fulfilling, you know. That would be. That would be a good thing to put on my, my, my, my grave marker.

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Robert Hargrove: that that was beautiful.

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Jason Wick: To have.

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Robert Hargrove: Like that.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, to have somebody tell you back something that

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Jason Wick: how you're approaching people that you encounter in the grocery store having somebody come to you and tell you what you're doing. I think that's pretty cool.

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Robert Hargrove: You know what's my? Because a lot of the times I feel

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Robert Hargrove: I it may sound good, but a lot of times I feel like the Invisible Man. I walk into a company or

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Robert Hargrove: government office. Nobody knows who I am, you know. I I call someone up. They don't return my phone call. So this there's a

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Robert Hargrove: There's

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Robert Hargrove: I don't want to put myself in a pedestal. It's it's I remember

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Robert Hargrove: reading, hearing. I I love Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was.

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Robert Hargrove: He told a story in one of his videos about how he

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Robert Hargrove: he's known for being. He went from a career as a bodybuilding champion to a movie star. He says it looks like I'm very successful.

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Robert Hargrove: I've been very successful over the past 30 or 40 years, but, he said, the truth is

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Robert Hargrove: that most of the time I've been failing.

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Robert Hargrove: and I would say the same thing about me most of the time I've been failing.

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Robert Hargrove: I've had my ups and downs, my, my, my rich days, my poor days.

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Robert Hargrove: but

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Robert Hargrove: because I stand for something, I actually stand for something bigger than success. So I'm willing to put myself out there and take risks.

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Robert Hargrove: And I'm willing to fail or bomb.

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Robert Hargrove: Even on this, podcast I may be bombing. I don't know.

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Jason Wick: Maybe 1 min to the next. We'll decide right. I don't know.

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Jason Wick: So you are. You've written masterful coaching and your your your consulting firm is called Master called masterful coaching as well. Right? And

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Jason Wick: on your site you've got some 7 guiding principles. How I interpret them. They're basically principles for a leader. And I love already that you've talked about. Leadership is love

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Jason Wick: leadership is having an impact. I'm just gonna read the headlines from these 7 guiding principles. And my hope is that something comes out of this, that people who are listening are going.

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Jason Wick: Wow, yeah, this is something I should be doing.

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Robert Hargrove: I can have.

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Jason Wick: But effect on my own leadership skills, right?

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Robert Hargrove: Like. So he.

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Jason Wick: So here are the 7 Principles. As I read them.

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Jason Wick: Find your hero with noble ideals and ideas.

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Jason Wick: Take a stand for something larger than yourself

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Jason Wick: lead through the power of your words. I love this one. By the way, you say Jfk was only president for a thousand days like, think about this. Wow! He did not achieve greatly, but his words inspire. I thought that was a fascinating sentence.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: Fourth one. The power of any individual is not as great as the power of a team.

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Jason Wick: 5. Go for results. Now, 6. Transform your leadership style from cop to coach.

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Jason Wick: and the last one is growth through adversity, and you've already referenced pain and failure and other things just already.

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Jason Wick: That's a lot of stuff to take in. I mean, they're your principles, any one of these that we should get into a little bit, that you'd love people to think about more.

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Robert Hargrove: Well.

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Robert Hargrove: I think that

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Robert Hargrove: to that it sounded great. You reading those. By the way you cool you, you really have a great quality of

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Robert Hargrove: radiance. You, you know they said Gary Vaynerchuk, who I'm somewhat of a fan of.

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Robert Hargrove: he said. Good intent wins in the world that's transparent and.

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Jason Wick: My goodness.

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Robert Hargrove: You

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Robert Hargrove: have a beautiful

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Robert Hargrove: phase, and

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Robert Hargrove: good intent.

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Jason Wick: Thank you.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: of all those things.

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Robert Hargrove: actually, every one of them is more important. But the one that's kind of consistent with what I've said, today is growth through adversity.

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Robert Hargrove: There's a there was a guy named Warren Dennis who wrote a book called Becoming a leader. Have you ever heard of it?

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Jason Wick: No.

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Robert Hargrove: It's a he. He was the Dean of the University of Southern California, and supposedly a a great leadership

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Robert Hargrove: Guru. Great leadership master great leadership. He taught many people how to become a leader.

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Robert Hargrove: and he said that that leaders grow

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Robert Hargrove: not just as a result of having an inspiring vision. It's pretty easy to come up with a vision.

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Robert Hargrove: They grow, not because someone hands them a list in a company of

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Robert Hargrove: homogenized

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Robert Hargrove: leadership competencies, you know, be a leader and

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Robert Hargrove: play as a team and whatnot.

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Robert Hargrove: They grow through what you call crucible experiences.

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Robert Hargrove: They transform actually, the

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Robert Hargrove: crucible experiences are experiences where you're faced with great adversity.

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Robert Hargrove: and they transform in the process of dealing with

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Robert Hargrove: great adversity into a leader.

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Robert Hargrove: And I can tell you a little bit of. One story about that, if you like.

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Jason Wick: Oh, please do. Yes.

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Robert Hargrove: Well, there was a fellow

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Robert Hargrove: you're from Colorado, right? Is that where you you were born?

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Jason Wick: I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. But I I'm in Colorado. I've lived in California and Illinois a lot of places.

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Robert Hargrove: Alright

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Robert Hargrove: When the people mentioned the Milwaukee Wisconsin, I think of the Milwaukee bucks, the arch enemies of the Boston Celtics.

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Jason Wick: I know. Let's not go there. I want.

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Robert Hargrove: This is just.

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Jason Wick: Today. Civil, it's a it's a tough.

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Robert Hargrove: Era right now. Yes, I'll skip over that.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Robert Hargrove: But

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Robert Hargrove: So I'll tell you this story about Harry Truman.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah, one of the things I've done in my in my work that I'm very happy to share with you

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Robert Hargrove: is that I like using examples. But to teach. I like teaching leadership

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Robert Hargrove: by using examples of the great leaders of American history

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Robert Hargrove: because they're they're kind of like

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Robert Hargrove: rock solid examples

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Robert Hargrove: a lot. If try to teach leadership by teaching talking about Ceos.

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Robert Hargrove: You can very easily wind up on shaky ground.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Robert Hargrove: Jack Welch was known as the CEO of the century, and by the by, the before he died he, his reputation was destroyed. For one reason or another. So I I like telling stories about the great leaders of American history, and probably the greatest

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Robert Hargrove: was George Washington, Abraham Lincoln.

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Robert Hargrove: and Franklin Roosevelt

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Robert Hargrove: in terms of their the impact that they had on

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Robert Hargrove: people's lives.

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Robert Hargrove: But an interesting story

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Robert Hargrove: comes from about growth through adversity comes from Harry Truman. When Harry Truman

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Robert Hargrove: Was a boy.

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Robert Hargrove: He wore very thick spectacles. They looked like coke bottles. The old-fashioned coke bottles. Most people don't network coke bottle looks like today.

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Robert Hargrove: and he wasn't athletic. He he spent all day in the right in the library, he said he read every book in the

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Robert Hargrove: Missouri. What's what's the town Independence, Missouri Library? And he loved history. But anyway, they shipped him overseas in World War One.

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Robert Hargrove: And because he passed the intelligence test, they

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Robert Hargrove: pork.

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Robert Hargrove: and he had never done. He he'd always been the kind of the kid that was actually picked on in the school year because he he wasn't good at sports, and it was a bookworm. And what's the classes? Well, they made him a corporal and wouldn't, and and and they gave him a horse.

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Robert Hargrove: and he led his group up a mountain in the in in France.

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Robert Hargrove: and they were supposed to project this mountain.

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Robert Hargrove: and he and his platoon of about 15 or 20 men in uniform.

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Robert Hargrove: We're all of a sudden they start being bombarded by our by German artillery all over the place. Boom! Boom! Boom!

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Robert Hargrove: And and people were terrified.

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Robert Hargrove: And

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Robert Hargrove: You know what Harry Truman did, what know, what the people did? They started running away.

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Robert Hargrove: They started deserting their post and running, scattering in all directions. Well, at that point Harry Truman.

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Robert Hargrove: facing that immense adversity where he could have just been blown off his horse any minute

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Robert Hargrove: started, know what he started doing. He started shouting and swearing and hollering at all the people that ran away, and told him come back to that spot that their that their solemn duty that their honor is to protect.

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Robert Hargrove: And at that moment Harry Truman was transformed into a leader.

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Robert Hargrove: and the evidence of that was that

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Robert Hargrove: he stayed in touch with every person

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Robert Hargrove: on that mountaintop.

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Robert Hargrove: even during the time he was in President, and every one of them said.

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Robert Hargrove: From that moment on

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Robert Hargrove: I looked at Harry Truman as my leader.

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Robert Hargrove: Okay, that's a good example of growth through adversity.

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Jason Wick: That's a great, a great story, and it's interesting, too, to think about moments of adversity.

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Jason Wick: because sometimes it seems like they just happen in an instant.

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Jason Wick: you know you only Harry only had so much time

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Jason Wick: to holler before they're out of earshot right? You had to some quick thinking so from your study. What do you think? Why do you think he made that choice over the other? The whole trajectory of his life could have been different.

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Robert Hargrove: Well.

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Robert Hargrove: that's a story that all started a very, very, very long time ago.

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Robert Hargrove: So now I'm gonna I'm a creator. So

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Robert Hargrove: I'm a little bit like Lynn Lyndon. Johnson Lyndon Johnson was a great, a great, I believe, in a lot of ways. He was a great leader in other ways. He got us into Vietnam.

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Robert Hargrove: But I believe in in the long

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Robert Hargrove: view of history you did a lot of great things.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: if you look at Harry Truman's life. What did I start the story

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Robert Hargrove: telling you that he did.

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Jason Wick: Well, you told me that is well. You talked about him as a young boy in the coke bottle sun glasses, and he was, excuse me, Coke, bottle glasses, and he wasn't an athlete, and he got picked on.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah, and and where he spent his time in the library

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Robert Hargrove: reading books about the great leaders of history.

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Robert Hargrove: and one of his

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Robert Hargrove: favorite sayings

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Robert Hargrove: was.

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Robert Hargrove: character is destiny.

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Robert Hargrove: Okay?

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Robert Hargrove: I believe I don't really know. I I would like to like tell a story, and I even be willing to lie about it to say that, you know. He remembered that book, page 52 of the book of on George Washington.

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Jason Wick: Right.

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Robert Hargrove: That's why I brought in Lyndon Johnson, because Lyndon Johnson would tell stories, and and his biographers found out that he may. He completely made them up, but he might use them to make a point. So yeah, so yeah, I believe that he's he. He studied all these great leaders of history, and he also studied military battles.

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Robert Hargrove: And when you're in that type of situation that that's probably

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Robert Hargrove: character is destiny.

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Robert Hargrove: That's one of the great that came from Heraclitus, a Greek historian.

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Robert Hargrove: So. And and that's a lot better than saying leadership is

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Robert Hargrove: just you know, it's about teamwork, or about vision or or yeah, th, those are worthwhile comments, but

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Robert Hargrove: that's what I would. That's what I would tend to to think that he's something, snapped.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Robert Hargrove: When when you read books about the great leaders of American history, particularly American history.

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Robert Hargrove: it has a way

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Robert Hargrove: or or read stories. I like to watch videos on on Youtube. It has a way of altering your DNA, your leadership DNA code.

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Robert Hargrove: you know. So so I think that would. That would be my attempt at an explanation.

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Robert Hargrove: If I had more time I would have made it up, made up a story, and and not told you.

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Jason Wick: Like that. Yeah, that.

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Robert Hargrove: Wonderful! Hmm.

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Jason Wick: No, but I like that, too, because there are a lot of things in play here. You you talked about. The character is destiny, but also, you know, I, what comes to mind for me is that preparations determining that outcome, that the study affects the the behavior, and and it's not as if

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Jason Wick: there was this Hollywood inspirational moment. Maybe that just came, you know, in this example. But but it's really the effect, the cumulative result of of all those things, or the result of the cumulative things that come before it, too, that

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Jason Wick: it's not just luck involved in in these types of.

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Robert Hargrove: Imagine if you were Harry Truman reading about

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Robert Hargrove: George Washington

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Robert Hargrove: leading his Ragtag army

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Robert Hargrove: across the Delaware in the middle of the winter, without any shoes.

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Jason Wick: Yeah.

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Jason Wick: more growth through adversity. Right?

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Robert Hargrove: Imagine that you were Abraham Lincoln who lost a son at the beginning of the Civil War, visiting the

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Robert Hargrove: the camps of the he would, he would sneak out on weekends on on horseback and visit the camps where he'd saw many men had died, or

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Robert Hargrove: we're in dire straits with being legs being amputated and whatnot.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: I guess we need. I I think, what we're saying a lot in this call today is

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Robert Hargrove: we need role models of leaders that really

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Robert Hargrove: stand up to the test of time.

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Robert Hargrove: That's why I was gratified about my book because I I wrote it 40 years ago. I don't even remember what's in it, but I remember some of I remember the big ideas, but that that it could, that something from it stuck around and stuck with people.

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Jason Wick: Yeah, and it's still having an impact. Yeah.

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Jason Wick: okay, we're gonna wrap it up with a couple of things here. But I I wanted to get your take as someone who has studied

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Jason Wick: leaders and faces and history and others.

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Jason Wick: if you're someone leading today, in in whatever context that might be, what? What should they be looking out for

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Jason Wick: with the future of of work? What is important for us to be aware of?

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Jason Wick: That's going to be really important.

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Robert Hargrove: We're not. I'm not gonna say.

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Jason Wick: What's that?

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Robert Hargrove: The future is AI.

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Jason Wick: Okay. You're not gonna say that.

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Robert Hargrove: I'm not gonna say that, although that actually, it fits my my book, my book, Masterful Coaching, is about how to become the leader.

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Robert Hargrove: Your business needs

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Robert Hargrove: by realizing an impossible future.

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Robert Hargrove: When I wrote that book it was before the M. It was before the iphone.

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Robert Hargrove: It was before amazon.com. It was before Tesla.

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Robert Hargrove: I always felt that those were the kind of people that I would like to work with. I say, on my website, now we coach the daring to create legendary companies.

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Robert Hargrove: so

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Robert Hargrove: I I think what every leader should think of is go for an impossible future, not just a predictable future.

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Robert Hargrove: Measure yourself by

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Robert Hargrove: the question, did I make a difference, or I? Did I not make a difference? A CEO told me the other day

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Robert Hargrove: that he was joining. A

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Robert Hargrove: skip level interview performance review

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Robert Hargrove: of one of his direct reports.

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Robert Hargrove: And yeah, and the direct report was telling him about the people on his team, and he said.

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Robert Hargrove: And my my CEO friend said, Well, how did he do? Did he perform? Well? Yes, he said. Then he asked him a second question, he said, did he make a difference?

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Robert Hargrove: And they said, of course he made a difference.

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Robert Hargrove: The direct report said, is is vice President, or whatever he was. Then the CEO friend said, what what difference did he make?

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Robert Hargrove: And you know what happened then?

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Robert Hargrove: That old Vice President became Chuck Tucktite because he couldn't think of what actually he did to make a difference. But let me come full circle. I started out talking about

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Robert Hargrove: America's ennobling ideals and enduring values.

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Robert Hargrove: And I think the best way to teach leadership

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Robert Hargrove: is to each of us to try to personify

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Robert Hargrove: the great leader, the great, the the qualities, the like a handful of qualities that all great leaders have.

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Robert Hargrove: And

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Robert Hargrove: as I'm speaking those to you because I'm a coach, I want you to think of which ones you are strong.

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Robert Hargrove: at which ones are your strengths, and which ones do you need improved?

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Robert Hargrove: And the I think the first one is

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Robert Hargrove: character or integrity. As I said, character is destiny.

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Robert Hargrove: If you have good character.

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Robert Hargrove: the chances of being successful, the chances of creating followers who, not only creating followers, but

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Robert Hargrove: but

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Robert Hargrove: having the follow to stick with you is is much greater than if you don't.

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Robert Hargrove: Secondly.

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Robert Hargrove: very, very important. Second quality is empathy

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Robert Hargrove: empathy. I interviewed the Dalai Lama. Once.

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Robert Hargrove: he said, he talked to me about compassion, which is the same as empathy, said, compassion is our empathy is experiencing other people's suffering, as your own

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Robert Hargrove: leaders are naturally people who are empathetic. Franklin Roosevelt

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Robert Hargrove: was known as the trader to his class. He came from a very wealthy family, yet he took a stand for the new deal and wanted to help people who were standing in bread lines, and they were out of work.

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Robert Hargrove: Yeah. And you know why?

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Robert Hargrove: Because he had experienced polio.

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Jason Wick: Hmm right.

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Robert Hargrove: And he knew what it was like to be

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Robert Hargrove: to be he. So everyone is just another suffering human being like

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Robert Hargrove: like him. The third quality is responsibility. When you feel empathy

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Robert Hargrove: like, if you naturally want to take responsibility

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Robert Hargrove: for other people.

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Robert Hargrove: I don't know what number I'm in for

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Robert Hargrove: drive

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Robert Hargrove: you you. A leader has to have the leader's job is to make something happen that wasn't supposed to happen.

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Robert Hargrove: You know.

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Robert Hargrove: George Washington created the United States

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Robert Hargrove: create a new country. Abraham Lincoln made sure that the people that that the people of all races and colors and creeds enjoyed the same rights that they talked about in the Declaration of Independence.

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Robert Hargrove: Franklin, Roosevelt passed and

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Robert Hargrove: Economic Bill of Rights.

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Robert Hargrove: So. But it's one thing to have a vision. You have to have the drive to make it happen. You've got to be an instigator.

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Robert Hargrove: and the last couple is

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Robert Hargrove: 5,

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Robert Hargrove: and forgive me if I get the numbers. Wrong is self reflectiveness, humility, and self reflectiveness.

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Robert Hargrove: Because we all make a lot. None of us are perfect.

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Robert Hargrove: you know. 1 one thing I learned studying great leaders in business and in and in government and history

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Robert Hargrove: was that great greatly is, none of them are perfect. None of us are perfect human beings.

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Robert Hargrove: Sure we all have many faults and flaws.

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Robert Hargrove: and what makes you great is, despite your faults and flaws, is you're standing up

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Robert Hargrove: for those American ideals and values that I talked about in the beginning. Okay.

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Jason Wick: That's that's a wonderful way to wrap it all around.

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Jason Wick: Wrap it all together.

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Jason Wick: Integrity, empathy.

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Jason Wick: responsibility, drive and humility.

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Robert Hargrove: And self reflect. Yeah, which is the same as self reflectiveness.

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Robert Hargrove: go ahead.

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Jason Wick: Wonderful.

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Jason Wick: So before we let people know where they could go to learn more about you, I'm sure they've gotten a good glimpse here, and it's been really, it's been a lot of things, Robert. It's been fun, entertaining, educational, inspiring all at once, which I think is the best package we could ask for. Frankly.

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Jason Wick: if people want to learn more about what you're up to, we'll give them a chance to to you. Give you a chance to tell them where to go and and whatnot. But the question I ask everybody to end our conversations is, what is something that you've learned recently.

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Robert Hargrove: I learned that.

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Robert Hargrove: I spent too much time

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Robert Hargrove: writing books and not enough time shaking hand, getting outside the building.

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Jason Wick: Something. Yeah.

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Robert Hargrove: Hands. I think I'm actually better at that. I that's what I really love to do.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: I think one thing I learned that I think other people could apply.

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Robert Hargrove: Is Joel.

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Robert Hargrove: Think about your life going forward.

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Robert Hargrove: not as doing what you've being, who you've always been or doing what you've always done. But see, see, like, see, your future is one of is a a providing new openings for possibility and and

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Robert Hargrove: opportunity.

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Jason Wick: Great advice, and that's consistent to me with what you're saying. Masterful coaching is trying to champion this idea of creating the impossible future, or whatever the exact wording you said was, but I love that. It's a it's an open, ended idea, moving forward, not just looking backwards. So thank you.

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Jason Wick: Okay? So for people who are really into what we're talking about today might want to look into more of your work, maybe eventually someday, shake your hand. Where should they go to find it?

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Robert Hargrove: They might find Sammy in the grocery store, and I tapped them on the shoulder and say, it's me.

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Jason Wick: Is that that may happen.

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Robert Hargrove: Well, okay, let me say this because we do want to hear from people we don't want to. I just don't want to be someone pontificating on a podcast, I like to help people.

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Robert Hargrove: So

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Robert Hargrove: just give me a few things. One thing is, you can connect with me on Linkedin.

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Robert Hargrove: That's pretty easy

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Robert Hargrove: you go on, Linkedin. Look! Check out, Robert Hargrove, check out my my profile. Another is you can go to

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Robert Hargrove: masterful coaching.com. That's pretty easy, masterful coaching.com.

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Robert Hargrove: There's the book masterful coaching.

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Robert Hargrove: And there's

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Robert Hargrove: master coaching.com has a lot of different leadership programs that people people are interested in for leaders at all levels. And and I'm going to give you my executive assistance. Phone number

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Robert Hargrove: 6, 1, 7,

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Robert Hargrove: 9, 5, 3, 5, 2, 5, 2. You know, we have what we call free coaching Tuesdays.

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Robert Hargrove: So if somebody wants to call us up and get some free coaching on Tuesday.

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Robert Hargrove: You call that number, and we can make the make the whatever arrangements are necessary on free coaching. Tuesday. That's great. (617) 953-5252.

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Jason Wick: Okay, I'll have all of that in the in the show notes as well. So Robert Hargrove, on Linkedin masterful coaching website, masterful coaching.com. The book is masterful coaching, and then we'll have the phone number for the free coaching Tuesdays. That sounds wonderful.

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Robert Hargrove: Let me just add one other thing.

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Jason Wick: Sure.

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Robert Hargrove: I think I've

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Robert Hargrove: feel like I've had the opportunity to

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Robert Hargrove: have myself express myself

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Robert Hargrove: itself in this

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Robert Hargrove: interview with you, and I think I've had the opportunity to be all that I can

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Robert Hargrove: and all that I can be.

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Robert Hargrove: all that I am, and all that I can be, and it's largely due

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Robert Hargrove: to you.

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Jason Wick: Oh!

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Robert Hargrove: For the space that you created for me to be

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Robert Hargrove: by who you are.

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Robert Hargrove: Okay.

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Jason Wick: Wonderful.

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Robert Hargrove: Right.

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Jason Wick: And hopefully, others will get the best out of that collaborative effort. Then, when they listen to this conversation, that's wonderful.

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Robert Hargrove: Alright thanks, great to meet you. And let's talk sometime. I'd like to hear more. I'd like to learn a few things from you about podcasting.

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Jason Wick: That sounds fantastic, Robert. Thank you so much for your time today. We're all good to appreciate that. Thank you so much.

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Jason Wick: Bye, bye.