S4E5: Losing and Failure with Don Schmincke

AI

• not going to predict where it goes
• great research assistant
• good editor for writing
• Augment not Abdicate; like a calculator

Winner and Losers Book

• came from working with entrepreneurs
• what we're teaching about entrepreneurship isn't what people are doing in the field
• too often we're writing only about successes
• seek failure as a way to learn; either win or learn
• "tool seduction" was in the autopsies of a lot of dead companies

Failure

• failure is when whatever you expected to happen doesn't happen
• thinking about death is the most important tool to make big decisions
• fear of failure fades in the face of death
• neurologically, thinking about death unhooks the ego; it hacks the brain
• some say we're afraid of failure because of our survival instinct
• to face failure, you need to know what your fears are and what in your life needs to die

About Don in his own words:

sagaleadership.com

How did I end up researching management theory failure rates, and transforming strategic planning and culture change?

No idea. As an MIT and Johns Hopkins researcher, the journey was nonlinear. I was nearly arrested as a capitalist spy in the Soviet Bloc, got shot off an aircraft carrier, survived in the Kurdish capital as Tehran held hostages, was the first white person allowed into an African Tsonga village, explored religious integration in Vietnamese mountain tribes, developed missile-guidance systems while my frat brothers took Vegas (later portrayed in the movie “21”), and was caught taking my kids to a North Korean DMZ minefield. (Bad dad!)

But my background in planetary physics, AI, biomedical engineering, helped me learn from many global expeditions to discover how humans group for work, play, reproduction, civilization, and war.

That's how we invented the winning formula system.

Leadership Voyage
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Transcript

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wherever you are on your leadership voyage it starts[Music] here hey everybody welcome back to another episode of Leadership Voyage i am Jason Wick your host leadership Voyage the podcast dedicated to your pursuit of becoming a great leader i have a great show for you today don Schmanka he was on season 2 episode 15 if you've been listening for that long he came on because he used uh AI to uh write a book write a book write a book he used AI to write a book um kind of tongue and cheek but also just to kind of stretch the technology this was not terribly long after chat GPT first reached the masses uh I think it was late 2022 when that happened if I'm remembering correctly so if you want to revisit that episode after you listen here today season 2 episode 15 but uh before we get to Don who is a a very smart guy and very entertaining as well uh reach out to the show start your voyaggmail.com i would love love love to hear from you uh share this with your friends or your network if you like the whole point of this podcast is to help people with their leadership journeys wherever they're at and I think today will speak to almost all of you out there who are listening it's a great topic okay so before we get too far let's just make sure we get to the meat of it don Schmanka uh researcher MIT grad John's Hopkins the whole resume uh he's got it and he is uh an executive coach spoken with uh multiple like 2,000 speeches he's given worked with companies we talk about his book Winners and Losers and the concept of failure fantastic topic so strap in here we go uh another great episode and conversation on Leadership[Music] Voyage all right everybody welcome back to another episode of Leadership Voyage i am very pleased to have for the second time in this show's history uh Don Schmecka as my guest today hey Don good morning how are you good morning great and it's good to be able to connect again i know you said you've just when we were before we started recording you've had a busy morning so thanks for sparing a few minutes for the guests here and I know they're going to get a lot out of it and if it's anything like the last time we spoke they'll also laugh a little bit at some point I suspect um when we spoke a couple years ago you had written your book um used AI to write your book uh about how could basically how could humans uh improve themselves and we are you know solidly 2 and a half years in since the chat GPT launch that kind of reached the masses right i just had to get your thoughts where are we compared to where you thought we might be after a couple of years into this launch with uh LLMs and Gen AI well it's it's funny i uh I did the book sort of as a humorous uh look at having AI tell us how to upgrade ourselves and um but it was interesting that was fun to write and it was it was it was sort of a joke book that I did with response to some of my MIT Fried brothers that were debating this issue of humanizing AI but uh I should go back I was thinking about going back again and saying okay you wrote that when you were just a fetus and now you're in graduate school yes so how would you rewrite it or you know so be curious to see what it would say about itself that way so I'm gonna I'm gonna do that one of these days but um no I think what what's happened is AI became I don't know it's I remember when calculators first came out um some people are old enough to remember that and everybody was in hysteria you know they were like "Oh my god we're all going to get stupid and you know we're going to use calculators and do math." And none of that ever happened i mean it just um you know it it it today I mean back then it's like oh you can't use a calculator you got to do this yourself but today somebody's working on a problem somebody says how come you're not using a calculator you know it's like why are you doing that longhand again is going to be the same way it's u you know as long as we don't do something like have it take over military control of the planet like what bad could happen out of that um be a useful tool but it's hard to predict because we never predict what our tools are used for that have this level of impact you know we thought the telephone would be an entertainment device um you know we never knew like where these things like the printing press was supposed to decrease copying errors in the Bible but causing revolutions of governments because it allows cheap books and different ways of communicate totally unpredictable so I am not going to predict AI i have no idea i can tell you what I've been using it for more of today is um it's a great assistant um and it can do in 20 seconds what I would have a graduate student go research for me in the library or whatever and then come back a month later um and it's actually a good developmental editor i we've um been doing a few articles and um normally it would take a week or so just to get an editor to look at it make comments do some you know every good writer needs an editor either the publisher assigned you one or you got your own but I find that it's done some amazingly accurate and and useful um editing and feedback on my writing to where I was really surprised about that yeah so I think those of us are that can use it as to augment not abdicate there's a difference um the work that we're doing uh or we're going to find it just to be an amazing you know like a calculator was when we first had it uh however there will be some people that are stupid enough to use to abdicate their life to it and um look I wrote a book well you never even read the book what do you mean yeah I wrote a book and we can tell because it looks like AI yep exactly there people are being found out all the time you know I was in one meeting where I had an executive um submit a strategic plan uh and I looked at and I can immediately tell it was AI like this guy had no strategic thought whats whatsoever and and they're they're a processing company and it was written as if it was for manufacturing firm so you know I didn't say anything but I'm just thinking you know this what are we going to do here so I think more and more people are getting frustrated with that um and so I think maybe that'll rectify itself and people start thinking again and stop stop abdicating so that's my my rant on AI so far no thank you i think I I mean I I I respect the safe stance of I'm not going to predict where we go with this because I think we all understand that even though we design something or have a vision in our minds for something and how it'll be used the customers decide how it's ultimately used and and that's what we're seeing here as well and I think we should all keep in mind the augment not abdicate because um yeah you can certainly see how AI becomes a crutch for people um because they're overoptimizing for speed and ultimately their critical thinking starts to um starts to soften a little bit yeah so I appreciate those thoughts and I I just this conversation really isn't going to be about AI but I had to revisit the topic with you because um I know that you've had experience if I understood if I recall you've been involved with AI in some form for decades but we're all seeing it in the public for quite a uh for the first time in some ways now over the last couple of years so yeah but let's let's pivot to uh to the reason we're here today and I wanted to get you on the show again to talk about your most recent book uh Winners and Losers 2023 and um just to set the stage for people let me rewind to where the opening is of this preface come on now Jason there it is um before we This is from the preface of your book gives people an idea before we start I know this isn't your first book on entrepreneurship you're expecting me to inspire you with the usual tips motivational quotes and success stories well that ain't going to happen i I love that it really captures the essence for me at least of talking with you and reading some of your work so I appreciate that and hopefully that gets a kind of a context for folks winners and losers right can you give us a quick overview uh of this of this book yeah I um it really came out of working with a lot of CEOs many who are entrepreneurs and started their own businesses years ago and um and then I started seeing a lot of uh courses and and teachings on entrepreneurship and I looked at both of these things and I'm like you know what we're teaching isn't what I'm seeing you know so and fortunately you know I've I've been you know I'm an old guy i've done like 2,000 speeches to CEO groups so I've been in front of about I don't know 30,000 different businesses and you know a third to a half of those were entrepreneurs so I I I'm seeing in the field what really happens that's when you know somebody said "Well why don't you why don't you write an entre entrepreneur book from an actual CEO's perspective for young entrepreneurs that are just starting off or people that maybe just recently retired and they're at the kitchen table wondering you know what do I what do I do next?" So that's where it all it all came from and a lot of the myths that I was using to that I was dispelling were myths that I was already dispelling in working with corporations because a lot there were some similar themes and so it became kind of interesting to take um you know a half a dozen of those myths and put them into um a book for entrepreneurs but I wasn't I wasn't really going after the corporate market it was really the individual entrepreneur but I started seeing a lot of people uh in meetings with you know dogeared pages of my book i'm like "What are you doing with this book it's it's not for you." And they go "No this these myths apply to my team right now." So um it kind of went crazy i mean it became bestseller on Amazon for in the entrepreneur category it became number one and um I don't know for 15 minutes or so you grab this screenshot um but I was just I was um surprised it went you know came number one from momentarily because I wasn't expecting it to happen so that's really what was behind the book and I'm glad it I'm glad it made an impact yeah i mean I like it again it's coming up here for a second time you had a certain thought of what you you thought you're writing this for and where it would be used but it's being applied in multiple different ways which is fantastic right for people to connect the dots in their own ways and and see the the things you're writing about and be able to apply them to their own lives um as you know as concisely maybe as you you could capture it um what are the key findings from your research of of working with these with these companies and giving these speeches and and whatnot that kind of led to this central thesis what what is the central thesis and and what did you encounter that led to that well one of one of the things that came out of it is um what we a lot of us knew like in the high-tech industry as an example is that you know success comes through failure not from studying successes you know but from learning around how how to fail problem is with entrepreneurs or new projects and things people start failing and then they have this uh bad emotional reaction and they feel like you know they're not good enough they're not this they're not that and my whole point is like no you're actually that's what you should be feeling right now you know and so you should be seeking failure um as a way to learn and um I think it was Mandela who said "I I never I never fail either either win or learn and I think that's really the point but we don't teach we don't teach how to learn by failing we tend to teach like using successes and um so you get all these books on how to be a great company and everybody's got their great company list and and then um and then most of these great companies in these bestselling books end up failing like 18 year 18 months after publication or And I was curious you know how that was happening but I think what happens is um we should have been teaching what did the what what did the founder do before the company made it great because the the authors weren't there you know they were there after the fact oh they did this right did this right this this and all that but they weren't there before you know this was their fifth try right yeah i mean you know they lost their house their marriage got destroyed uh you know the kids hate them or whatever the No kidding you know their their finances went you know they have no no credit i mean it was just all this stuff is totally ignored but to me that is actually how we should teach it and why do you why do you think why do you think essentially all the books are focused on the tip of the iceberg if we want to go with a metaphor like that and not all the things below it that have led to what we see stupid writers I I don't know sorry you know there's there are a lot of charlatans out there and if you can shrink wrap something and sell volumes people will buy it and you'll look famous uh so there's a lot of that in the industry today um because um you don't really need an agent a lot of people are self-publishing i mean so it's not like you're straining it through an agent who then has to strain it through a publisher and then if you get the contract then you got to strain it through their editor i mean there's a lot of there was there was a lot of elimination of noise in the old in the old days but today it's like you know if you got a a buck from your uncle you get to publish a book now who the heck knows but if you got a good following you can sell enough to get on a bestseller list so it um so stuff Why do they they I think they publish it because they don't know they don't know any better they It's like I'm going to do a study of successful companies what they did great and then I want to make a book and sell a volume that's fine but the problem is when you talk to the people who who use the book or use the consultants to implement the book they they're not bragging about their stellar success stories they're complaining about yeah that didn't kind of work out and you know this wasn't right that wasn't so normally what's interesting in our research we go clean up messes from those efforts okay and um and I apologize for the groundskeepers in the back oh we can't hear him you're good um so we had a um it was interesting when when I was at Hopkins when I left MIT we started looking at the failure rates i didn't know I was going to be here doing this work but all I knew is there was complaints from professors and students on on implementation and that's when we started doing biological research like it's part of our species maybe and that's where I and it's part of this ancient model that that has been working for 10,000 years but one of the elements is that you know we get so seduced by our tools so I think another answer to your question I'm just I'm just realizing as I'm saying it is um some of these books are great because they offer us great tools others are successful because we're seduced by them and tool seduction I found was in a lot of autopsies of dead companies and we started doing autopsies we just saw uh a lot of them clutching onto their tools and when I wrote that book with Chris Warner high altitude leadership we were studying dead humans and since he's top rescue climber in the world he sees a lot of dead humans and in working with Chris um they're a lot of them are clutching their tools so in the book we actually have a chapter called tools deduction okay same thing with dead companies they're all clutching their tools so tools are great tools are cool we need them but when they start using us instead of us using them that's a problem um so I think these books long-winded answer to your question they I think if if we get seduced by it we buy these books and we're they start using us and we stop using the book and that's where things go wrong really really fast there's a lot in there Don so thanks for that kind of comprehensive and and winding answer which is really an interesting one i I mean yeah I mean I have some thoughts on tools so I don't know if it fits perfectly into this discussion so maybe I'll table those for right now but yeah I mean interesting the democratization of publishing as you're saying which is interesting related to this but also this this this focal point on on uh just studying the success you said there is a disconnect early on between what we're teaching entrepreneurs and what's actually happening in the field right and and we're going to pivot this discussion a little bit really more to the notion of failure itself not just necessarily your book but what what you're telling us in this book about failure and what I what I want to start with is from you what's your definition of the word failure to get started whatever you were expecting to happen didn't yep you know so and that could have been the launch of a new project uh or you know getting our customer base activated or you know what whatever you said like hey this is going to be great everybody's going to love this let's go ahead and launch this thing and it turns out just crashing that's called a failure and um it's interesting when you look at great entrepreneurs like um I was looking at some Steve Jobs uh history earlier I mean he had a lot of failures you know and but he learned from each one so people don't think of Steve Jobs as a as a failure but that's actually how he became great and he used one of the interesting uh aspects of death and and I wish I hadn't known this earlier when I was reading when I was writing the samurai book uh um the code of the executive was based on a samurai book it was my first publication back in the 90s and I'm getting still a lot of people coming saying "Don can we take that C?" So I made an online course out of it the whole point is that um the issue of death allows you to hit failure in a much more positive way and he uh and so now we're doing this Becoming Samurai online program and all of a sudden people are saying "Oh my god this like changed everything about how I'm making decisions and how I'm leading." And then could I share a screen maybe is that possible for your podcast you should be able to yeah oh let me try it let me let me let me see if I can do that because uh it'll be good here it is here we go can you see that i can yep perfect there we go so um if it I thought this was an amazing quote that I felt like I was reading a samurai and uh a writing from a samurai which is you know in my original book and certainly in the online course I have now but think about this guy i mean he failed multiple times transformed a planet basically violating everything we teach in business school about how to lead and manage people right you see these films and books on his his life and he's like "God he he they say he was an [ __ ] they say he was dismissive they say he was violating all the stuff we teach." And I'm thinking how do we teach a course today in leadership where we have to start off saying "Everything I'm going to teach you is irrelevant." Yeah right right because the guy that violated everything they teach you created the most powerful company in the world but this is one of those interesting quotes where for for the audio down for the audio listeners only could you read the important parts for them here you think just so they can Oh thank you thank you for yeah I don't want somebody driving their car and going off No we don't let me uh let me and look if you want a copy maybe if people want to email me or something I'll send you this the slide but it's remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life and that was like the first sentence and and and then he goes on that almost everything all external expectations all pride all fear or embarrassment or failure these things just fall away in the face of death leaving only what is truly important i mean here's this guy telling us the secret right and then he says,"Remembering that you're going to die." Which actually is the first sentence in my book The Code of the Executive which was based on a 700year-old development of manuscripts of samurai and the first sentence is to keep in mind constantly by day and by night the fact that someday you must die keep in mind that someday you must die constantly and we found out now uh that neurologically uh because as we teach this now to executive teams it really unhooks the ego because if you're hacking the brain if you're already dead the ego is no longer needed to keep you alive so it's an interesting brain hack but let me let me get back to his quote here he says um yeah it's it remembering that you're going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose you're already naked there's no reason not to follow your heart and then I um I wrap it up with with his quote quote "Death is the destination we all share no one has ever escaped it and that is how it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life." So it creates that urgency and perspective maybe to help you find the courage is that a fair read on it yeah um I had um we were doing this with clients and now uh one of our clients um a woman uh caught my colleague Susan Barrett the other day and said hey Susan I still wake up every morning thinking how can I be braver today and it's like how how many people do that but I had during international uh women's day u month uh I a month month and a half ago uh I was approached by several women CEOs and and and business leaders who had uh uh looked at this course and they said you know you should get make this available to women everywhere because it's the missing link and um I said what I was like what says yeah because you know we need to look at bravery differently we need to take a look at our lives and and not feel like we're so held back and I'm like are you guys feeling this it was funny because my former client a dear friend uh Kim Widmore wrote a whole landing page saying "This is what women should be reading to take this course to take it to a whole new level." So we started this women's thing right for samurai fantastic book isn't it mostly men i said "No people don't realize there." And and in in the landing page I have like half a dozen samurai women with what they've done and and and there and some are icons in Japanese history and culture and uh recent battlefield studies show like a third of the bodies on the battlefield were female so there's something about the philosophy of death as freedom death to allow bravery death to allow to death to allow honor and to grant us uh as it was what Steve Jobs was saying that power to take our careers and our life to a whole new level so all of a sudden this online course I put together during COVID because I we we were all like locked down and I yeah had nothing to do i just started you know putting a studio together like like this and did its thing and now I'm realizing like it's I should pull it off the shelf and and get it going and you know um George Stalk who um I just been really um blessed and privileged to run into brilliant people and and then they for some reason they want to hang out with me which I think is great because I I let you research i I love it when you know smart people want to want to talk to me so um uh we've been oh god maybe um hanging out together for a couple years now but we have a couple of articles we're submitting to Harvard Business Review but this woman thing came up and he now this is the guy that started the lean manufacturing revolution in Japan and the United States so he's started movements that were globally impactful and he looked at this and he thought "Oh my god this is something that has not been addressed it's like it's a corner that needs to be filled." And so we may be putting this out putting this out there later so somehow your your question of failure and death are tightly related and I think it's applicable everywhere for entrepreneurs for business leaders and lately because I got dragged into this by a bunch of women female leadership development um yeah so what's your next question that's what you got next yeah yeah i mean talking about that relationship between uh mortality and and failure and courage and you weaving those stories in and out with the samurai and the course and this is I mean it's really great stuff some of the things you're saying and and the Steve Jobs quote it's pretty just powerful stuff if you let it hit you it can be pretty powerful right and I wanted to ask you you know this question I think goes well beyond business as what you're just talking about goes well beyond business i mean why are we so afraid of failing well I you know I think it's um some say it could be a survival instinct i mean if we fail we die you know so we're programmed to want to win and be successful um others it could be because it's interesting you say that because in the um as we began experimenting with this with executive teams and with entrepreneurs and in the samurai class the first part was identifying fear so your question actually is the solution okay yeah where are my where are my fears what am I afraid of yeah because until that's established like in this course the it's it's that's the first thing you can't go on in the course until you have that figured out because the next part is death and the whole part of the death piece is what do you what do you attach to like what in your life has to die in order for you to move forward that's an interesting way of looking at our fears you know what am I attached to and then how do I die so there's a third module on dying but it only until you get through that can you really look at these elements we all want but they're so elusive bravery and honor you know and that's where I found over thousands of years you know leaders have been doing this with humans and the samurai just sort of codified it in a way that can be applied and it makes neurological sense when we look at the brain how death unhooks the selfishness and the ego that holds us back and Steve Jobs quote just said that in contemporary terms eloquently um so it really is starting with fear until you can identify what has to die you can't move forward and um and that's what I'm hearing from people taking this class that is like oh my god it changed my life um but it's nothing new it's this is old stuff I'm just codif right no I mean that's the thing that's interesting you're talking about going back hundreds thou hundreds and thousands of years and and some of these things um that have existed and and maybe I don't know I'm I'm winging it here but maybe some some ways the tools that we have get in the way of us just kind of keeping it back in simplicity and the most basic things about what it means to be human and um I love I just love the way place this discussion is going right around mortality fear attachments what needs to die the urgency maybe to re reach new heights in in the face of that you will die yourself all these things um which are related to entrepreneurship or other other other things in our lives um the the time always goes very very fast on this show um which means it's a fun conversation but um we got to talk a little bit about what got you to write the book we've gotten to talk a little more deeply here as well about some of the things related to failure um before we give you a chance to tell us where you'd like folks to go to check your work out or if they want to reach out and get in contact with you there's a question I ask everybody on this show and interestingly enough Don when we spoke two years ago when I asked you what you'd learned recently you actually referenced you said something like "So many mistakes so little time," which was I think you were writing the book Winners and Losers at the time so I'll ask you again two years later what is what's something that you've learned recently yeah um God how many how many deaths have I had since then i try to die three times a day you know oh wow that's a good goal that could be that could be the quote yeah um you know the things that I thought were right and they're not or the things that were I thought you know I was uh you know doing things properly I wasn't and you know like that so I think for me what what have I learned is how to keep how to keep being comfortable with dying to those things that hold us back and I always wake up inside of a problem you know it's holding me back and most times I fail at realizing it and letting go of it um but sometimes I have my moments and um and and they do die and then I can move forward not only in the research but also with family or um you know my business and things like that so I maybe that's the quote yeah I like that and you did if I recall you dedicated this most recent book to your kids right for putting up with you something like that is that is that too trivial way to characterize it so that's that's pretty much uh that pretty much wraps it up I think okay uh Don Schmeanka um really enjoyable conversation as I was expecting um thanks for your bringing your wisdom your honesty your humility um and and I do genuinely appreciate that and I know the listeners will as well for those who are listening and want to check out your work or want to find one of your books or maybe you want to have you speak with their organization any of the above what's what's the guidance you can provide for them to come connect with you sure um well my my main website uh that I'm trying to keep updated is Saga Leadership i I stole that from the Nordic tribes which is a whole another area of great great research but um s a ga as in saga leadership.com uh should have access to some other things in fact I'm going to have to check it as soon as I hang up here nice to the samurai courses and and and other work so yeah that's a good place to start so Saga leadership s a ga for anyone listening who wants to check out Don's work um Don Schmanka my honor to talk to you today and thank you so much um until next time[Music] yes there you have it folks don Schmecka second time on Leadership Voyage very very happy to have him and I hope you enjoyed the conversation about as much as I uh enjoyed having it with him because you know what I appreciated about Don is he obviously you know he knows what he's talking about in terms of the research he's done and the experiences he's had and how he's kind of codified that and um and written about it and and that's great um I think what I appreciate about Don is how he kind of has these epiphies or connections or realizations kind of in the moment and is totally comfortable just just rolling with it and uh and and I enjoyed the conversation again and I hope you enjoyed uh listening to it so here's your quick episode recap before we do that as a reminder reach out to me Jason Wick your host at startyougmail.com and um yeah that's all I really had to say i look forward to hearing from you all see what you thought about this episode this conversation any guests you might think of that might be great for the show topics you might have I'm happy to hear them so I've had some people reach out within the last few weeks with some ideas for the show as well and that's appreciated so thank you for that so quick recap of my discussion with Don uh we talked about AI to start off he said he's not going to predict where AI will go uh but it makes a great research assistant and it's a good editor for him in his writing keep in mind augment not abdicate think of it like the calculator you can use it for things to augment what you're doing but don't abdicate your thinking to it we talked about the book winners and losers which he wrote in 2023 um the book came from working with entrepreneurs what we're teaching entrepreneurs isn't what people are actually doing in the field and that's partially what inspired him to write the book too often we're writing about successes but we should seek failure as a way to learn and he brought up the saying either win or learn tool seduction was something that they had seen in autopsies of a lot of dead companies i found that pretty interesting as well uh then we kind of talked about failure in it in the general sense not just for entrepreneurs or business but just generally uh for all of us and failure as he defines it is when whatever you expected to have happen didn't thinking about death is the most important tool to make big decisions very interesting interesting stuff to think about there fear of failure fades in the face of death and neurologically thinking about death unhooks our ego it's a way for us to hack our brain uh some say that we're afraid because failing afraid of failing because of our survival instincts and in order to face failure you need to know what you are afraid of you need to know your fears first and you need to identify what in your life needs to die so a lot of you know I never thought I would say the word die and death so many times on this podcast but that's you know here's to uh to you never know what you're going to uh you never know what to expect which I appreciate and love about these conversations so I hope you learned as much as I did today on Leadership Voyage and until next time everybody take care[Music][Music]